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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Feminism: chat

Original poster

Is having a cleaner exploitation or liberation?

134 replies

foreverastudent · 22/08/2010 12:47

I remember reading in some feminist book a long time ago (maybe GG?) that when rich/middle class women hire poor/working as cleaners they are exploiting them.

I'm not even sure if that quote is accurate but anyway, is it exploitation?

It is if they aren't being paid well or are being treated badly but is it not liberating to create work and financial freedom for someone who can maybe only do this type of work (eg due to childcare)?

Does one (rich) woman's freedom from domestic drudgery come at the expense of another's?

OP posts:
EgyptVanGogh · 23/08/2010 19:48

A fiver for the first woman to cut my DH's toenails...

PavlovtheCat · 23/08/2010 19:56

if it were exploitation, then it must also be exploitation to use internet grocery shopping, where some-one else shops, packs and delivers your grocery.

I pay a man to clean my windows. That is exploitation i am presuming. Or is it ok for him to clean because he is a man?

Not sure where the argument is based really. It is not socialism. We are not talking about slaves/serfs. We are talking about paid employees to provide a service.

Of course it is exploitation if it is not done properly, but that applies to all work.

PavlovtheCat · 23/08/2010 19:57

I am not sure either whether, in the area i live in, £9.00 is a low wage. It is a very reasonable wage here and is around what i would expect to pay per hour for a cleaner.

sunny2010 · 23/08/2010 19:59

'I am not sure either whether, in the area i live in, £9.00 is a low wage. It is a very reasonable wage here and is around what i would expect to pay per hour for a cleaner'

£9 here would be seen as incredibly affluent here. If you want me to clean for you I would be there in a flash for that type of wage!!

PavlovtheCat · 23/08/2010 20:01

sunny i am actually looking for a cleaner. But alas I would say 2 hours a week is not going to pay the rent Wink

scottishmummy · 23/08/2010 20:02

exploitative is not being paid min wage,poor T&C,unreasonable conditions, breaches of statutory employment legislation

cleaning or childcare does not necessarily equate to exploitation

PavlovtheCat · 23/08/2010 20:05

My cleaner will be looked after better than I am at my place of work. She will get a cup of tea made for her for a start! And a christmas bonus. And I won't give her a disciplinary when her child is unwell and she needs to take time off. I won't make her go on ridiculous jaunts across the country for no reason whatsoever and call it 'training' Grin.

sunny2010 · 23/08/2010 20:06

haha probably not but dont think you are exploiting people by paying someone that type of wage just to do a bit of cleaning. That is easy money and definitely not exploitive. If I got offered a job like that here I would rip their arm off to do it. I would happily do it for £5.80 there are lots of worse jobs I have done than having to do a cleaning job.

I dont get how childcare or cleaning is exploitive and I dont get why some feminist women cant understand that a lot of people enjoy cleaning and looking after children.

scottishmummy · 23/08/2010 20:11

its is odd to argue someone else cooking/cleaning is exploitative but sahm doing it should incur wage. so it isnt the set of tasks in-itself it seems to be the doing it for someone else, the out sourcing that causes consternation

PavlovtheCat · 23/08/2010 20:14

sunny oh I don't know, easy money, not sure. I mean, I am happy to pay a good wage to anyone prepared to clean my toilet, and the kitchen floor!

sunny2010 · 23/08/2010 20:28

I clean my toilet at work and change 20+ stinky nappies a day in my nursery job lol. Some childrens nappies are worse than any toilet!

scottishmummy · 23/08/2010 20:29

aye,esp after i've cooked curry

PavlovtheCat · 23/08/2010 20:48

Grin Oh don't say that...i fed baby DS some of our dhal this evening...his doesn't have curry paste in it but he wanted mine Grin

scottishmummy · 23/08/2010 21:01

mine all love curry,but goes out same it went in iykwim

nooka · 24/08/2010 07:27

I don't like cleaning. I don't like washing. I don't look down on other people who do (like my dh, or our sadly ex-cleaning lady). That would seem a strange thing to me. I like the consequences of cleaning and washing after all. I am very appreciative of them. On the other hand I do enjoy DIY and gardening and cooking, and do a fair amount of all three. I don't really see what this has to do with feminism. Should I confess that I am middle class and we did have a cleaner when I was growing up.

I do think there is a big issue with pay gaps and equality in general, and am aware that my domestic set up is at the least highly unusual. I just don't see why my feminist credentials as it were would be different when we as a family decided to hire a cleaner (because dh and I didn't want to spend our spare time cleaning, and we have the money), or now when dh does the cleaning (as he is not working and therefore we don't have the money).

We hired a nanny for a while too. That wasn't so I could work, but simply because we both worked and it was the best option for our family. I get very peeved when people talk about these sort of decisions as being about womens choices, because that's not the way I see it, or think it should be seen.

I am quite aware that I am in a privileged position to have a good education and a professional/managerial job, but that doesn't mean I am exploiting those who do not, unless somehow I was actively stopping them from doing something else potentially better.

elportodelgato · 24/08/2010 16:00

when we first got a cleaner I had the line from a friend of mine about 'exploiting another woman to do your dirty work' so I had to explain:

a) we (as a family - not me, as a woman) were employing a cleaner for our home
b) I don't believe that cleaning is 'women's work' it's just something that has to be done around the house and DH and I both hate it
c) why is it assumed that women do all cleaning around the house and that getting a cleaner in to do it for you is a neglection of female duties? No one has a go at a man if he gets another man in to fix his car, do his tax return, mow his lawn or any other traditionally 'manly' tasks
d) given that we both hate cleaning, it is totally reasonable to pay someone well above the minimum wage (plus holidays and Xmas bonus) to do it for us
e) in addition, surely it is a good thing in these times of economic crisis Grin to be keeping someone gainfully employed

No guilt here - I love my cleaner and am in awe of the job she does, she's fab and if I am in when she comes then we have a nice cup of tea and a gossip.

Original poster
foreverastudent · 24/08/2010 16:55

Ok, so after considering all the comments I've come to the conclusion that I think it isn't exploitation if:

-the pay and conditions are equal to or better than an equivalent 'male' occupation eg sick pay/holiday pay/pension contribution/redundancy pay/bonuses.

-that the money and hassle involved in hiring and managing a cleaner comes equally from both the man and woman in the household.

OP posts:
scottishmummy · 24/08/2010 19:35

err thanks for that unattainable criteria.using that benchmark no flippin cleaners would be employed.ever

here is how it really goes in guilt free real life

we need a cleaner

  1. call agency/.card in a window
  2. get recommendation from friend

no fraught negotiations about comparable male blah blah, or measurements to make sure that "money and hassle involved in hiring and managing a cleaner comes equally from both the man and woman in the household"

sunny2010 · 24/08/2010 19:44

'Ok, so after considering all the comments I've come to the conclusion that I think it isn't exploitation if:

-the pay and conditions are equal to or better than an equivalent 'male' occupation eg sick pay/holiday pay/pension contribution/redundancy pay/bonuses.

-that the money and hassle involved in hiring and managing a cleaner comes equally from both the man and woman in the household.'

Well I work in anursery for £6 an hour and dont get sick pay, bonuses, redundancy pay, pension but I am not being exploited. Many people do 'womens work' without all that and as long as you are getting the minimum wage personally I have never felt exploited.

SolidGoldBrass · 24/08/2010 23:34

Well, public spaces have to be cleaned, as well (hospitals, stations, leisure centres, restaurants). People are paid to clean them. Do you think that all employees of any kind of company should spend an extra couple of hours at the end of the day cleaning the workplace for no extra pay? Why should it be any more exploitative for people to be paid to clean homes, than paid to clean a bar or an office building? Cleaning a home is usually going to be less hard work and probably safer (generally less likelihood of stabbing yourself with a dirty syringe) than cleaning the loos in a rough nightclub.
It's low pay and bad treatment that make a job exploitative, not the nature of the work.

Sakura · 25/08/2010 02:26

SGB, my husband is the boss in his company and he cleans the toilets. He takes it in turns with the vice president and a few others. They just don't see the point of hiring a cleaner.
You could argue that some woman out there has lost out on a cleaning job.
True...
But I do think it's good for men's psyche to clean toilets from time to time

OTOH, I can't stand cleaning my own house, but I quite enjoyed working as a cleaner because when the job was done you could go home, In your house it's got to be done and re-done

I'm still not keen on the fact that most CEOs are men and most cleaners are women

sunny2010 · 25/08/2010 08:29

'I'm still not keen on the fact that most CEOs are men and most cleaners are women'

Yeah but in general once you have kids how many women would want to be a CEO? Most women want to go flexible and do less as they want to be with their kids. You can only see from the threads on these types of sites how many women say they are dreading going back after maternity, want to change to something family friendly, want to cut hours etc. Its also always in RL, people saying they are quitting work, cant wait for maternity cause they get to do a less stressful job or less hours. That is usually the reason why women take a more laid back job.

SolidGoldBrass · 25/08/2010 09:05

Look, lots of jobs are boring, uninspiring, repetitive and no fun as well as being badly paid. Flipping burgers, stacking shelves, cleaning, emptying bins or working in a sodding call centre. Working as a domestic cleaner (as long as you get a fair wage and are not treated like a serf or a non-person by the employer) is one of the less grim ones as generally the hours are flexible and the work not too painful or dangerous to do. Remember that most people are not CEOs, the majority of people in work are doing dull jobs that aren't well-paid. Bashing better-paid women for employing and paying someone else to do domestic work is daft (and unfeminist) doing boring shitwork when you could pay someone else to do it is ludicrous martyrdom.

Sakura · 25/08/2010 09:12

Yes agree with the ludicrous martyrdom part.
sunny, totally agree with your post. I don't kknow how to change it, I just know it doesn't feel right.

I just have a massive problem with the fact that money flows from men to women in almost every area of society

sunny2010 · 25/08/2010 09:35

Sakura - It will be impossible to change it because most women love being with their kids more than their job and the man has to sacrifice time with the kids to subsidise her staying at home full/part time. I am very thankful my husband does it for me and my dad did it for my mum. My husband always says you are so lucky to be with our daughter all the time as I miss so much. I agree he is right but am glad he does it for us.

I see it as men providing for us because they love their families and want to look after their wife and children. As long as your husband loves you and appreciates what you do I think its fine as it is.