Is having a cleaner exploitation or liberation?

[foreverastudent]

I remember reading in some feminist book a long time ago (maybe GG?) that when rich/middle class women hire poor/working as cleaners they are exploiting them.

I'm not even sure if that quote is accurate but anyway, is it exploitation?

It is if they aren't being paid well or are being treated badly but is it not liberating to create work and financial freedom for someone who can maybe only do this type of work (eg due to childcare)?

Does one (rich) woman's freedom from domestic drudgery come at the expense of another's?

Sakra - There are many mens jobs that get paid low wage in my area that are predominantly done by men bin men, all the humping and dumping jobs, factory work, forklifting, driving lorries etc. You would be very lucky to get much more than the minimum wage for any of those jobs except for bin men which is a pretty well paid job and I know someone who gets £7.50 an hour for it. Its understandable that it is paid so well though because its not a very pleasant job.

Many men do unpleasant jobs for very low wages and they are more likely to be stuck doing them for longer hours than women as many women with kids do part time work.

In response to the OP nothing wrong with getting a cleaner. I love cleaning and prefer it to waitressing as you can stick your ipod in and get right in to it. I really enjoy cleaning jobs.

Trillian and others- I think it depends on who would be doing the cleaning if you didn't have a cleaner- for the vast majority of couples women do most of it.

Bagged-There is quite a lot of evidence to the contrary I'm afraid. As professions/jobs have moved from male dominated to female dominated (eg teaching, clerical work) they have become less well thought of and less-valued bothe economically and socially.

There are lots of men who will stay unemployed rather than take on a low-paid 'women's job'. Women (who are second earners in their household) can take on these jobs without losing benefits.

It doesn't seem to fit the general trend that more physical work is done mostly by men. Cleaning is physical, so why aren't more of them doing it?

my cleaner earns good money (I think). she is self employed and does a really good job. win win for both of us.
dh and I share the housework more or less equally but it is nice that that only consists of hoovering every other day and other small things instead of "wasting" our free time with cleaning.

'It doesn't seem to fit the general trend that more physical work is done mostly by men. Cleaning is physical, so why aren't more of them doing it?'

Lol if you think cleaning is physical I take it you dont know any working class men in real physical jobs. I wouldnt swap my job when I was cleaning for my husband doing labouring/warehousing for the same hourly wage. You often get paid more for being a cleaner than doing labouring as well.

But if you are in a couple and the woman does all the cleaning unpaid, then surely it is better for a professional to be paid to do it? Then there is more equality within the couple (in practice if not in thought), and the person doing the cleaning is doing it in return for a fair wage.

So what are we saying, that it's not ok to employ anyone to do anything for you on the basis that it might be exploiting them?

The thing is, doing your own housework is boring although I really hesitate to use the word 'drudgery' when it is for my own benefit (I like to live in a clean and tidy house).
Doing someone else's housework and being paid a good rate for it is a totally different matter. That is not drudgery, that is a job.

alibabaandthe40nappies - It isnt drudgery to everyone though. I absolutely love cleaning. Its no different to some men enjoying DIY, gardening, mowing the lawn etc and some men seeing it as drudgery.

Its fine to enjoy doing yoru own ousework and its fine employing someone to do it. I enjoyed working doing cleaning and I enjoy my own cleaning. I agree with Egypt cleaning is very theraputic and satisfying.

Where I live a lot of people have private cleaners who get paid really well. Most are self-employed, choose their own hours and what tasks they will and won't do.

But because we live in an affluent area with relatively low unemployment (at the moment) it means that there is no local cleaning staff for the big employers to hire. So they have to bus up people from London to do the jobs that locals won't do.

So you could argue that the first group isn't being exploited and the second is. But the second group aren't all women, and places like the local airport need to be clean. And personally speaking there's nothing I appreciate more than clean public toilets.

I think the issue is if women or men are in low aid jobs then they are respected for the valuable job they are doing. I dont mind doing jobs such as cleaning, waitressing, childcare, chambermaiding etc and I have worked in all of these jobs. However I do get annoyed when you do these jobs are more affluent people treat you as if you are thick, uneduicated or just plain scum (which many do and often it is women that look down on you so personally I do this so I dont see this as a feminist issue).

As long as you treat lower paid workers with respect this isnt an issue. As spiritmum said she appreciates clean public toilets and spaces so that shows cleaning is a valuable job it might not be brain surgery but it is a needed job.

It also depends who is paying the cleaner - too many men (judging mainly from MN tbh) think that paying the cleaner is the least the wife can do if she CBA to do the cleaning herself.

There is a brilliant quote in the marvellous Politics of Housework which expresses another possible outcome:

"I'll suggest we get a maid. She will do my share of the work. You will do yours. It's women's work."

Wholeheartedly second sunny on one of the worst parts of doing low-paid work is the patronising attitude of some people, but I'm not sure that's a gender issue. Except possible when women doing childcare/cleaning get looked down upon even more than e.g. binmen. I never get the "strength" argument as an explanation for why [male job] is harder/better/worth more - surely if you are strong enough to cart bin bags around then it's no harder for you to do that than it is for me to carry toddlers around?

elephants - I see my husbands job as harder as it is boring and very physical.Being with children and caring for them is not boring and is fulfilling. Thats why I think that way personally. I am biased though as I have kids and work with kids so am lucky to get to do my passion on a daily basis. I feel sorry for my husband as he cant do this at the moment and wants to be at home with the kids.The differene between working as a Binman is that that job involves moving stinky rubbish where as childcare is rewarding and interesting

Also binmen here get looked down upon. I know someone who is a binman and women and men have treated him awfully at times. He got dumped by a girlfriend and she said he was an embarrassment.

legitimate paid employment isnt exploitation. i work ft and pay for ft childcare mainly undertaken by female nursery nurses. mutually benefits us all, they get paid employment in chosen area, i get to maintain my ft work

i have a cleaner,benefits us both.no ideological difficulties for me associated with it at all.and not all women employing cleaners are rich either.though it obviously requires a disposable income

sunny "Many men do unpleasant jobs for very low wages and they are more likely to be stuck doing them for longer hours than women as many women with kids do part time work. "

But surely the whole point is that, on ANY analysis of the figures women earn massively less than men - around 70%. Sure, there are individual men that earn less than individual women, but for any given skill level, a predominantly male job will be paid more than a predominantly female one, Equal pay for Equal work legislation notwithstanding.

Re cleaners - I'm sure its not the case for any of you on here, but IMO of RL couples, yes, it is most frequently the woman who hires another woman to do 'her' domestic tasks for her. I don't think that the employing woman herself is exploitative, but it is absolutely a part of an exploitative system.

Personally, and speaking as someone who has been very grateful for cleaning work in the past, I would not hire a cleaner except and unless I was physically limited in my ability to do the work (so for example if I was sick, elderly etc). At which point that is an entirely different situation, and part of a society in which the less able are supported by the more able (and hopefully I would be contributing in a different way to society myself as the one needing the help with cleaning).

Cleaning is no different from any other job, and I think it's offensive to suggest that it is.

The exploitation element depends entirely on the conditions and treatment of the employee, like in any other job. I expect that many cleaners have a 'bad lot' in this respect, and they are not taken on in a role that protects pay/rights/holidays etc. (This sort of thing comes up from time to time on MN - not paying cleaners holiday pay etc)

I have lots of friend that are cleaners, both domestic and in offices etc. On the whole, they prefer to work in a domestic setting, as they don't have a boss breathing down their neck (their employers are usually at work), and can listen to the radio/make tea etc. as they work. Believe it or not..some people find domestic cleaning relatively therapeutic...it's a job that I have done in the past, and would do again if I needed to.

I suspect that some of the people who see cleaning as exploitative, are in fact passing judgement on the fact that some people choose to pay people to clean up after them. It's the employer they have an issue with, not the job.

im am physically able to clean,dont have time nor inclination.want to spend non work time with family not fluffing and folding

my auntie lives abroad (in Dubai), is an ex-pat who only moved there 5 years ago. She has a lot of cash, a lot of time (her husband works while she is at home) and no children in the house, as both are grown-up with kids of their own. She lives a very comfortable life in between her home in Dubai and her home in England.

She has a hired cleaner, who is kind of in the realms of 'part-of-the-family' but also very much in the realms of indentured servitude.

Said 'cleaner' cleans, cooks, washes the car, does unpaid babysitting...lots and lots of jobs which a 'cleaner' probably shouldn't do. My uncle was laughing recently of the story he told to us about how 'the cleaner was cleaning his windscreen as he was driving away, because she hadn't had time to squeeze it in that day'

I was pretty shocked to find out that my auntie, by paying her to clean, owns her to an extent. She personally holds the rights to her education and whether or not she stays in the country. She also has the say on when she leaves the country to see her family. Cleaner is from a nearby state (unsure where).

Am very aware that the cleaner is probably benefitting from this arrangement as (luckily ) auntie is reasonable enough and would let her earn money to send to her family, get education if she wanted etc etc,(although she will take the piss in other ways (i.e babysitting, unscheduled other work), but it just made me wonder at how many other women in Dubai are exploiting young poor women for their own ends. And not being as nice (?!) as my auntie.

It also left me pretty shocked that a woman, who comes from the same background as my mum and nana (both strong women who did 'women's work' and did a lot of 'men's' work because they could and wanted to) finds it ok to hire another woman to do jobs that she really does have both time and energy for. What galls me is she is very feminist in her views...but then has a hired cleaner/dogsbody who she right on just takes advantage of!

It's led me to wonder if it is more of a race issue with her? She has become rather racist towards her 'fellow Emirates' since she went.

IMO there's nothing wrong with hiring a cleaner in this country IF rules are followed and they are treated right. Most are treated very fairly, enjoy the same rights as other workers.Everyone needs a help sometimes, especially if they have kids. A cleaner is a legitimate job - I have done it and must say although it's a bit horrible at times, I have done worse work in call centres etc. And in this times a job's a job's a job.
I'm educated - have done a lot of crap work to be so, pay fees etc. Nothing wrong with it.
But you should have the freedom to walk away if you want to.

Re Sakura's point that cleaning is unethical -

No, it isn't. Using toxic cleaners is damaging to the environment, damaging to health, and producing and marketing them for normal domestic use is unethical of manufacturers.

There is almost no domestic cleaning that cannot be achieved with a wood and straw broom, an old rag, a bit of plain soap, some vinegar, some baking soda and/or very little elbow grease.

Hahahahaha...I am LMAO imagining women refusing to clean up after themselves because it's unfeminist and environmentally unethical. Sounds like an excuse for being a slattern! (Not aimed at you Sakura, just think it would be a damn funny cartoon)

As for the Tesco checkout worker comparison - a self-employed cleaner's net income will be much higher and after paying the tax man, only she will profit from her labour.

Takver - How many women have you ever met that work full time once they have children or dont take time off for kids/go part time etc? Even those that do the majority do pick jobs that arent so stressful or fit round the kids. I dont think it is a paygap over all I just think most women dont care about working in a high pressure job when they have kids.

Also surely there is no such thing as your or our money once you are married.

chochosan - the type of people that think that doing cleaning is oppresive are the kind that think looking after kids etc is oppressive. I dont personally understand that mentality.

It depends who is doing the employing.

We have a cleaner and it is def not exploitation. She earns way above minimum wage, she gets paid for her full hours even if she doesn't do them (she even gets a christmas bonus). On top of her financial incentives if she doesn't finish what she is doing in the time she has I would not expect her to do overtime to finish the house.

Egypt, a cleaner can earn more per hour than a checkout worker, but that doesn't mean they earn more. Cleaners normally have to deal with multiple employers to have any chance of a full week of work, and often have to deal with "void" periods eg travelling from one job to another, or only 3 hours at the first job and 3 hours at the second, with no time for a third when they don't get paid. Plus, they rarely get NI, holiday pay or benefits, and they typically lose out when their employer goes on holiday.

Tbh, both jobs are crappy and not well paid.

I feel uneasy about having a cleaner, but seriously - who are these people who can juggle children, a full time job, a part time masters degree and housework? I don't have the hours in the day, and neither does DH.

I pay my cleaner holiday pay and have paid her sick leave (although she has only ever had one day off sick in 3 years, probably because nobody else pays her sick leave, unfortunately!). I feel less exploitative that way. I do still sometimes feel like the lady of the house with the housemaid cleaning up my shit after me, and it does make me feel a bit uncomfortable.

'Egypt, a cleaner can earn more per hour than a checkout worker, but that doesn't mean they earn more. Cleaners normally have to deal with multiple employers to have any chance of a full week of work, and often have to deal with "void" periods eg travelling from one job to another, or only 3 hours at the first job and 3 hours at the second, with no time for a third when they don't get paid. Plus, they rarely get NI, holiday pay or benefits, and they typically lose out when their employer goes on holiday.

Tbh, both jobs are crappy and not well paid.'

Yeah but by the time you factor in your tax credits etc. It bulks it up and you get them if you are over 25 if you dont have kids or if you are a parent. It makes it very worthwhile when you think of it that way and that way they both become good jobs.

sunny, I agree that being a cleaner or checkout worker can be a crucial source of income, and the tax credits make it even more so, but what I meant by them not being well-paid is that the gross income is likely to be £8 to £15k pa, and that is substantially less than for many other jobs.

see eg www.worldsalaries.org/uk.shtml

Of course, many people don't have the choice of other jobs, or have the choice only of other jobs that are even worse.