How brave is this woman?

[shimmerysilverglitter]

I have already posted this on the In The News Board but I wanted to discuss it here. I knew Saudi women had a hard time of it but I did not realise that in a so-called developed country that women are not even allowed to drive!

saudi women beats up virtue cop.

As I said on the other thread I cannot imagine how desperate this woman must have felt knowing how severe her punishment would be for doing something she has every right to be doing. I can't begin to imagine this kind of life.

It says at the end of the article that there are changes happening in Saudi with regards to attitudes towards women, does anyone know anymore about this subject? because I am woefully ignorant and I don't think I should be.

I should not really have put Hinduism in there. I know Christianity and Islam have inequity written into their holy books. By Hinduism, I think I mean Hindu culture: but to be honest I am only talking about India so I will leave it out altogether.

Appletrees, I find it strange that you do two things:

1. you do not engage with any of my posts or my questions
2. you pretend as though I am arguing a different thing to what I am

So I will not engage in the parts of your post that have sprung from your imagination and have nothing to do with my point, except for this one:

I do not think, and have never said, that harmful cultural practices abroad are the result of western imperialism.

What I am saying is this:

A lucrative moneymaker is being spun on the suffering of women. THat is a fact.

"Helping" women has always been used as a smokescreen to culturally obliterate other countries. Look at Afghanistan. The US set up the Taliban and helped them defeat the pro-women socialists. THen later they pretended that going to Afghanistan was to help women. They were lying.

YOu have to watch history closely.
In this case, the capitalists who made this book might be whipping up a storm amongst western women with ulterior motives. The authors have connections to Sachs. In the US corporations have a lot of power and influence over US policies.

YOu have made offensive derogatory comments towards me in almost every post you've made. In your last post you called me a "quack".

So I will give you info about something I am an expert in. I have a postgrad qualification in the subject:

What western conglomerates do is cooperate with governments of poor countries to make profit. They do this by disenfranchising women.
Women are a cheap supply of labour. They throw women off their sustainable land and set them up on farms where they grow food for the rich countries for companies like Tesco. Once the women are established on the farms they lose their autonomy and independance and become beholden to the paltry wages the company hands out.
The government and the conglomerate make money off the backs of poor women.

SO I am very confused that you were completely ignorant of the fact that the west is heavily intervening and interfering in other countries all over the world.

They pretend that economic growth benefits developing countries but in reality it only benefits the rich people in government who make money from the backhanders and the profits of the crops, but it does not benefit the women.

SO "quack" right back at you.

IN addition, you think that the mutilation of women's bodies by men in the west is "normal" because you have been conditioned to believe it is. Just like women abroad have been conditioned to believe FGM is normal. THe difference is that you believe your culture is superior, therefore not quite as harmful as other, inferior cultures.

I apologize for one mistake earlier. I said the African woman was paid 70p. She was actually being paid 38p when she complained before Tesco sacked her.

Independant article Differing fortunes

Gertuida Baartman, 39

Paid 38p an hour to collect apples, pears and peaches in Western Cape. She is a widow with three children and works for six months a year when the fruit is in season. If it rains she can not work and has to beg for food. She struggles to feed her family and pay for school fees, books and uniforms. Her family are forced to live on bread and potatos. Gertruida lives in a two-bedroom shack with her children, her parents, disabled brother and sister's children.

Terry Leahy, 51

Appointed chief executive of Tesco in 1997 and is set to receive £11.5m in shares. The annual report revealed his salary rose from £3.9m to £4.6m last year. He grew up on a council estate in Liverpool and was educated at the University of Manchester. He was knighted in 2002 for his service to the food retail industry. Sir Terry lives in Cuffley, Hertfordshire, with his wife and three children where Tesco plans to open a new Tesco Express.

Sakura, far from being ignorant, I am surprised at some of the points you haven't made. For example, the west's support of Iraq nearly thirty years ago in the Iran-iraq war.

This is why I tire rather of the lectures. You have been unable to respond to my posts at all without going off on tangents: and far from.accusing you of being a quack, I pouted out that you were defending fgm. Rather surprised you have not heard of that figure if speech.

You seem unable to acknowledge the terrible dilemma of supporting women without being culturally offensive.

I think what you mean to say is: yes, the suffering of women in some cultures is appalling, but what we do to them is more important.

I haven't been derogatory, I have said nice things about you. what I see in you is the crusade of a different set of western values. they are values I would support: they are diametrically opposed to some of the exploitation values we both deplore. but this is the thing: should we be doing it at all? I think we should. that probably makes me culturally offensive. but it is still imperialism.

I have not seen a justification for either the Iraq or afghan offensive that rests solely on the liberation of women bit I am happy to be shown one.

" far from being ignorant, I am surprised at some of the points you haven't made. the west's support of Iraq nearly thirty years ago in the Iran-iraq war."

YES EXACTLY!!!

The West supported Saddam because it was more important to them to defeat IRan. A LOT of Iranian boys died because the West helped Saddam.
THen, just like they did with the Taliban, when it suited them, they got rid of Saddam.

Seeing as you tiresomly refuse to engage in my points, please answer me this: wHy are you completely ignorant of the massive influences of the west all over the world?

And why do you think FGM is "not as bad" when it happens in the west? THat smacks of cultural superiority to me. Perhaps I should organize a campaign here among women in the East to help you see the light and put you out of your ignorance?

Odd response from you?

in answer to your first question, I am not. to be honest I know why you think I am. unless it's because I disagree that the west is responsible for everything bad that happens to women in the world for ever and ever amen.

in answer to your second question, I don't and I have no idea why you think that. why do you think it's not as bad when women do it to women?

Don't you understand? the entirety of my argument is about cultural superiority. Or not. It's about our dilemma in intervening - or not. it's about whether it is a duty, as part of humanity, or whether we even have the right, as part of another country or culture. it's not even a case I am trying to make. Should we or shouldn't we? it's a painful question.

Please don't accuse me of ignorance again. you've been horribly rude.

I do question someone's thought process when they tell me they have an x y or z qualification. Trust me: it doesn't make your argument any more cogent.

Excuse: I don't know why you think I am, that should read.

" I disagree that the west is responsible for everything bad that happens to women in the world for ever and ever amen."

Look, it's beginning to disturb me that you keep pretending that I am saying this.

Please check the above posts where I have emphasized that this is NOT my point.

I can see that you do not understand my point, and that you are unable to see that your point about the Iran/Iraq war shat on the very point you were trying to make

So, because you refuse to engage with my points AND you keep pretending that I am saying something I'm not (your "All women's problems are the west's fault" line of argumetn) then I'm afraid I don't know what else to say except...

I think you are trying to justify cultural imperialism

I accused you of ignorance after your repeated derogatory comments and your inability to engage with my arguments. Other posters have said that my argument has been laid out very clearly.

So it appears that the only person who doesn't understand my argument is you.

The one calling me a "quack" was particularly "horribly rude" as you put it.

You know, yit really takes the biscuit when you try and try to talk about a troubling issue with someone you think might be also trying to resolve similar issues, and all you get is lectures, accusations, false accusations at that, point scoring, argument for agent's sake. This is a troubling issue and although i sorry I used the word bitchiness, it looks so petty, so much like you want to be a winner rather than get to the bottom of something. I reAlly hate that word bitchin, I abhor it, I never use it, but I feel it's been utterly hopeless trying to share a dilemma and being addressed like a naughty stupid child in response.

I am sure you are not a bitch, it was a horrible thing to say. I'm just so disappointed.

You know, yit really takes the biscuit when you try and try to talk about a troubling issue with someone you think might be also trying to resolve similar issues, and all you get is lectures, accusations, false accusations at that, point scoring, argument for agent's sake. This is a troubling issue and although i sorry I used the word bitchiness, it looks so petty, so much like you want to be a winner rather than get to the bottom of something. I reAlly hate that word bitchin, I abhor it, I never use it, but I feel it's been utterly hopeless trying to share a dilemma and being addressed like a naughty stupid child in response.

I am sure you are not a bitch, it was a horrible thing to say. I'm just so disappointed.

Appletrees Fri 27-Aug-10 07:49:03 Well if it looks like a defence and quacks like a defence, I think you need to know - it's a defence.)

You say I'm quacking. I think that's a derogatory thing to say. It implies that rather than have a solid, grounded opinion, my opinions are based on quackery

Appletrees Wed 25-Aug-10 07:41:39
You also believe that if Saudi men were treated the same way as Saudi women, then the US would have invaded long ago?

Yes, I do believe this. You still have not explained why you think otherwise, but you have talked an awful lot about an unrelated campaign and book

Or rather, as I said in my post, I believe that if a group of men were being treated the way that Saudi women are being treated then the West would have imposed sanctions by now, definitely.

YOu have put forward no argument to persuade me otherwise

Appletrees Sat 28-Aug-10 02:08:40
Am really tired of your bitchiness. But lol at me allegedly calling you a quack.

Honestly, you are all over the place. Enjoy.

I don't think I'm all over the place but I do think you don't have a good grasp of international politics or any idea of where the power lies

It is rather tiresome when people go on about how terrible the West is to already exploited women. I always feel defensive because I see exploitation all around except elsewhere it's disguised as culture or religion and for some people this seems more palatable, but not to me. A woman who shaves her teeth, covers herself in mud and is sent away at puberty to have sex with strangers is just as second class as the woman paid 50p an hour to make clothes for Asda. The woman stripping in a club is just as beaten down as the burka clad, the factory worker in China has as limited a choice as the non driver in Saudi.

This "West is evil" shit is boring and wrong.

Posie, I do "get" your posts, and I don't think the West is evil. I am the west.

But I think it's wrong for the west to interfere in other cultures, when it is the west who are exploiting women in third world countries. And it is the west who used the Middle East, Africa and Asia like a chessboard in the 20th century and continue to do so tody. I cannot support that.
That's why I think this FGM argument is a smokescreen for ulterior motives. Maybe not from Appletrees, definitley not, but if GOldman Sachs is interested in women in the third world then I start to worry.

ANd I personally believe FGM is horrendous, as well as child brides etc. BUt I have not been desensitized to the horrors that go in Britain either. That's the hypocrisy in your argument.

I think the only answer is for women to focus on wresting the power from the men at the top. I think some real changes will happen then. I think we should fight for women to be represented in their own governments so that they can tackle problems as they see fit.

I think you'll find anyone that read/heard anything about FGM would find it disgusting, barbaric and frankly uncivilised. Noone who knows about it can ignore it. I'm not really sure what range of vile things that happen here as a social or cultural norm or practice that are comparable.

As for the West exploiting women world over, I think you'll find whilst the West do take advantage they do so with the blessing and historical practices of the culture/country they are exploiting. It is no more the West's fault that women are exploited than anyone else. In fact where some, more ethical, Western companies have employed indigenous people they ensure that the employees have similar rights to those in EU factories. (I know this from personal experience)