Do you think that men are oppressed?

[poshsinglemum]

For example; the traditional male role is to go out and work so technically men are oppressed by capitalism. Aren't they? Mabe not as oppressed as us girls are though. Thoughts please.

i suppose the detail is in the nature and degree of how one experiences oppression. i am uncomfortable with a complete blanket commonality.i think it is way more complex. with high subjective componenet too.some women will vehmently deny they have been oppressed at all.Add class,status,role and women oppressing other women in the mix.someone was discussing whether a prosperous woman employing a female cleaner is exploitative,oppressive

it is all really interesting but complicated too

ElephantsAndMiasmas, I have no problem with women (and men) campaigning against DV/abuse against women. As you will probably have noticed, I've repeatedly acknowledged that more women are victims than men are. As I have said, though, is that my personal feeling is that pursuing DV as a gendered crime tends to bring with it the associated thing that, as such, DV/abuse against men can be ignored.

As for which women's DV groups insinuate that DV against men doesn't happen much, and is mainly a gay thing, and doesn't count as the injuries aren't as bad: HerBeatitude earlier gave a link to a Women's Aid page that read (to me at least) as saying pretty much exactly that.

"If there were 100,000 female victims of a crime, and 20 male victims, you would still get a lot of people trying to shut up the women who called it a gender crime."

Yup, and they'd be wrong. But if it's 60:40? Or 70:30?

dittany: "Women do currently share one common experience, apart from our biology - there isn't a single woman on this planet who has escaped male supremacy and its oppression of us."

scottishmummy: "no not all women have a shared experience of escaping male oppresssion.what a preposterous thing to say"

You do both realise that you are agreeing with each other, don't you?

Right ho! It's just confusing when you see people arguing and it doesn't make sense. But I will leave and let you both get on with it.

Dittany, I've given up responding to you because you refuse to answer reasonable questions about what you're claiming. Instead you seem to have embarked on a muck-raking exercise to find anything you can to accuse men's groups as misogynistic and/or liars through guilt by association.

There's no point debating with you because you don't debate the issues, you just fling mud and hope some of it sticks.

no dittany no twisting dont resort to hyperbole

I think that rather than arguing who has it worse as a gender it would be better to look at the reasons behind why women and men end up with low self esteem that they end up getting with these abusers and staying with them.

Women might have it worse when it come to more cases of DV however there are many families that have experineced DV whee it effects both teh male and female chuldren and what they have seen manifests itselves in different ways later in these childrens lives. I think it is important tohave the communities and support for both genders who have been through situations like this.

I know male children who have seen their fathers do this and it is manifested in mental health issues for both genders. Both genders find it difficlt to trust, both experience anger and aggression and the male has previously ended up in prison for a short period. He has since turned his life around and both are having counselling. The victims of DV are not just the female or male members of teh couple but the next generation of males and females that have grew up within those types of families.

sunny, I think there is much in what you say. I know from Al-Anon (the friends and family offshoot of Alcoholics Anonymous) that co-dependent type behaviours are seen in both men and women. In the Al-Anon groups I've attended the male:female ratio is typically around 40:60. And co-dependent behaviours often lead to people ending up as the victim in abusive relationships.

Co-dependency does often come from low self-esteem and, in particular, through behaviours they've seen modelled to them in childhood.

Your example is interesting sunny but it seems to me that while both genders of children are "victims" in the sense that they have had a horrible upbringing, the son has become a victimiser as well - what was he in prison for? It's often said on here to women in abusive partnerships: "your DS will grow up to be just like his violent dad, and your DD will grow up thinking this is normal and end up with someone just like her violent dad." It seems to me that purely in terms of quality of life, chance of being murdered in own home etc, the son is actually not badly off in comparison to the daughter. Being raised to be abusive is unfair on the child, indeed, but being raised to tolerate abuse is far far worse.

The op is an oxymoron

I agree with dittany re dv. It is ridiculous that organisations try to compare f to m dv with the disgrace that is our m to f dv situation.

I basically agree. It's tricky though because of course some men are oppressed - gay men in Uganda for example. But "men" as a group aren't oppressed. Whereas women, as a group, are. Some more than others but all at a basic level.

dont concur with op,its not so cut & dried

Elephantsandmiasmas - The male I know about went to prison for defending his mum and attacking his father and it led to him being put inside. Not nice story or situation as it led to him finding prison really difficult came out when off the rails on drugs and alcohol. He is having counselling for low self esteem and has been involved in a relationship where the woman took advantage of his low ebb nearly resulting in complete mental breakdown. Doubt he will ever completely recover and will be on meds/counseling for life. It took him a long time to get help and he has been through a lot emotionally, finds it hard to trust etc. I hadnt really thought of this issue until I hmet his family a few years ago. DV can affect male and female children in a multitude of ways.

In my perfect world I would want to help both genders from any abuse or the fall out of DV, rather than argue who has it worse. Everyone is an individual and some can handle more than others. Everyone should have an equal right to help and support when they need it in my eyes, and I dont see the point in arguing.

Also can I add he has never hit a woman and never would. Towards women if anything he is too accepting and eager to please. The reason he got sent down was because he had been previously done for cannabis possession and then later ecstacy/amphetaines. He went to his dads house as he had tried to be amicable to him but after a drunken night assaulted his father resulting in a charge of GBH. As he had previous offences he got 8 months but got off with 4. After that he carried on taking drugs/drink but has now trying to cut down and is responding to counselling. Talking about the past brings out a lot of mood swings in him and depressive behaviour hence the anti depressants.

That's really sad, sunny.

Have read this thread and found it really interesting and thought-provoking - as I have found all threads in this section.

My answers to the OP:

a) both working men and working women are oppressed (socialist argument)

b) in both the working and the domestic spheres, it is not men (as a group) but women (as a group) who are oppressed (feminist argument)

Of course there are examples of individuals who do not fit into these categories. But those individual examples are just that: examples of a few individuals. They do not invalidate the basic premises that lie behind both statements.

A poster on the first page had it right: men might be repressed, or depressed, but, as the world is currently organised, they are not oppressed.

I agree with much of what Elephants has said on this thread. I also agree with much of what Dittany has said, particularly this: "There isn't a culture in the world where women aren't seen as secondary to men and where male interests don't generally prevail over those of women."

(By the way, I note that the OP referred to "girls", not women , and that she hasn't been back to the thread to give her point of view.)

'However I should stress that I also acknowledge that women endure prejudice, discrimination ad nauseam too. To reiterate previous posts, oppression, disparity or whatever you wish to call it, can affect anyone, irrespective of sex.'

I totally agree the shriekingharpy. I really dont see the point of arguing who has it worse. I have seen feminists and MRAS do it but really it doesnt help or get to the core of oppression. There are many factors, life experiences etc that can result in limited life chances. Every family that experiences DV means that the children can end up in care, mental health issues, seeing relationships and thinking how thats should be etc. It is important to spend the time working for people of both genders not just one or the other.

There are ways men are discriminated against and women are disciminated against and by pitting one against the other it creates a divisive situation and perpetuates the myth of genders being constantly against each other. I dont think its healthy particularly. Luckily in my own life it isnt something I really see and women and men treat people and their problems on an case by case basis.