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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Feminism, Friendly Fire and Frenemies...

7 replies

slouchingtowardswaitrose · 16/08/2010 11:14

The disability/prostitution thread, and discussion about topics being derailed by various folks who do not toe the party line, whatever it may be, and how depressing that is, has got me thinking about how feminism and other of my causes have got me involved with people who share my view on some issues, but blow my mind with their radically opposite views on others.

I have, at times, found myself allied with faaaaaaar right right-wingers, anarchist libertarians, born again Christians, population control obsessed atheists, etc. Because we agreed, at the time, on certain points, about certain issues, sometimes for the same reasons, most of the time for dramatically different ones.

I have seen boards blown apart by angry disagreement, I have seen and participated in splitting of board and creation of private boards, and let me assure you - those boards blow up eventually too.

Then what you have is all this energy split off and fragmented everywhere, and people aren't talking to each other or listening to each other, and change becomes much, much harder to make.

And then you think, damn, I wish so and so were still here because while she is a fucking freak who believes [insert whatever radical view you want], she is really good at this or that and even better at thinking about something else, I wish I could ask her, but alas I can't because we disagreed too violently about whether thongs should be banned because they contribute to urinary tract infections.

Radical women of all kinds have planted seeds in my head - at the time I mocked them, and then find years later I have come round to their view, or at least part of it.

Do you, too, find it really disconcerting when you are, perhaps briefly, perhaps for a long time, on the same 'team' as your ideological enemies?

Do you find it really difficult when you disagree strongly with people on your 'team?'

Do you, like me, feel the most weird when you are on the same side but for totally opposite reasons?

OP posts:
scottishmummy · 16/08/2010 11:24

isnt derailded your subjective opinion,if it is a robust discussion it develops.perhaps off at tangents.not sure what you are trying to put across are you hoping for someo kind of uniformity of ideological approach

answer to your questions
No, opinions are fluid and to an extent contextual so it may be possible to concur on points but not completley

No, robust discussion is the invigoriating.im more appalled at apathy then vociferious exchange of views

No, i can understand other pov just dont have to agree.nowt weird about it at all. be comfortable in your own skin and accept divergence

and nothing on mn gets to me becacsyue it is only inernet form.hasnt got the personalisatio aspect or nuances of real life. cannot completley get het up with someone i cant see or met.i recognise its limitations as words ona screen. i do enjoy robust discussion on mn but isnt permeating rela life

slouchingtowardswaitrose · 16/08/2010 11:35

Good post and agreed.

I suppose I should qualify that when I say I feel weird, I just mean that when I'm sitting in a meeting or something, I am aware that 'the woman over there is working super hard to pass a law that would trample my rights and potentially destroy my life.'

It does, at time, feel threatening.

On the other hand, I focus on the fact that 'the woman over there and I are working super hard to pass a law or persuade people to do something that would ensure the rights of millions of humans and potentially save their lives.'

If I ask for respect, I must give it. I have to breathe and not take things personally.

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MillyR · 16/08/2010 12:18

Differences in opinion do not bother me, I entirely disagree with SGB on her beliefs about the sex industry. But when SGB talks about the sex industry, she talks about the liberation of women, so we are actually having a feminist argument - we simply disagree on elements of the problem and the solution.

The same is true with Dittany. On previous threads I have argued that the class position of a woman alters her experiences to a greater degree that Dittany believes to be the case. But both of us are discussing the experiences and rights of women.

What I think causes threads to become problematic is:

  1. Derailing so that the conversation becomes about the oppression of men. This happens over and over again. If it just happened once, that would be fine, but it happens all the time. I don't think this is to be peculiar to feminism - white people do it all the time in discussion of ethnic minorities; they constantly derail and start talking about white excluded groups instead. I may agree with someone about the certain forms of oppression need resolving for men, but I have come on to a feminism section to talk about a group I belong to - women.
  1. People talking about women as if there oppression is some abstract concept, as if the feminist posters are not really women and not really oppressed. A classic of that would be rape threads. Poster X posts a woman blaming rape myth. Poster Z discusses the time they were raped. Poster X becomes gushily patronising and starts treating Z as an irrational victim.

But we are women - many of us have been oppressed and victimised in various ways. People should realise that at the start of the debate. Yet people come on the boards and discuss rape, prostitution, sexual harrassment, violence, murder of loved ones and so on with the expectation that none of us will have ever been in those situations ourselves. These debates are not abstract.

StewieGriffinsMom · 16/08/2010 17:38

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Sammyuni · 16/08/2010 17:59

There is never total uniformity within a group there will always be people who's views differ somewhat in comparison to your own that simply comes along with humanity.

There are people I have disagreed with at times but then on another particular thread they may post something i do agree with. I don't feel disconcerted by this much as peoples views are not stoic but fluid and everyone has a mind of their own with which they are capable of making their own choices with.

Difficult it can be as you find yourself trying to explain your views to them in an attempt to 'win them over' you might not even realise your doing it.

You have to accept not everyone is the same, some people will feel okay to do certain things which you yourself may find intolerable. As to being on the same side but for different reasons well that is because there is never one sole reason for anything in life. It's best to simply respect their view (as long as it's not bizarre) at least attempt to understand what they are saying and hope your view is treated with the same respect.

slouchingtowardswaitrose · 16/08/2010 18:16

Gosh, I hope I didn't imply I would prefer uniformity of thought - I meant to imply the opposite! I have a collection of friends some people find bizarre in its incongruousness, and I wouldn't have it any other way.

I guess what I meant to say is that putting myself in the sometimes uncomfortable position of working toward common goals with people who are very entrenched in polar opposite radical views, is worth it - but can feel like a difficult experiment at times.

For example, working on a campaign relating to an aspect of motherhood, with a group of women who actively campaign at a high level to make abortion illegal (when I believe it should be legal, and actively campaign for it to remain so).

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ElephantsAndMiasmas · 16/08/2010 19:50

That's politics though isn't it. I have a friend who is a right-wing advocate of the free market. But she is great at articulating exactly how economic models that should redistribute wealth (in theory) don't redistribute it to women, and why. So I really value her opinion

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