Had a bit of a bad time today - how do you all manage when people come out with odd stuff?

[ISNT]

I wonder if I have been sitting here with you all too much, and it has skewed my thinking, and thinking that my views are maybe more mainstream than they are.

And that stepping back out into the real world, suddenly ideas which I would have thought were quite obviously normal and sensible, are apparently off the wall and bananas.

basically I had a bit of a run in today about something, and what I am thrown by is that people who I would very much have expected to agree with me, thought the opposite.

It has really confused me and I don't know where to put it. I don't want to say exactly what is was as walls have ears but it was something like, maybe, shouldn't they move the soft porn mags off the bottom shelves, and the resounding answer from a group of women with children, being no.

I am all and upset

What do you all do when this sort of thing happens? Has my time on here made me incompatible with the outside world?

I can still remember what a shock it was to discover people I liked and respected didn't share my political views - shock,horror...

It is great though knowing,via MN,that you are not alone, and that even though people you are mixing with at work or whatever don't agree with you,plenty of other people do,and at least other people out there care!
(though I suppose knowing some of MN agrees with you is eclipsed in Milly's case by having the support of all of Denmark!)

By the way,ISNT - is your name just a random collection of letters?It is reminding me of something...

Trinity that wasn't what it was! That was an example of sort of something like it was IYSWIM...

They are thinking of making soft porn at childrens eye level the next MN campaign BTW there is a thread going over here about it, MN are canvassing opinions so it might be worth a look if it's something that you feel interested in

My name isn't a random collection of letters, I took my initials and namechanged to them because I have gone back to work now and didn't want anyone spotting my name etc etc. I have been in this section a lot though, and on the lefties as well and people used to call me ISNT anyway...

Thinking about it pogleswood I'm not sure you were on the lefties after all! I must have seen you around here

Feel I should apologise for being nosy now
None of that is what it is reminding me of though,and obviously I was being a bit dim as I have seen you around in your not -initials incarnation,and should already have known the answer to my question...
It would've been here though - I've lurked on the lefty threads but am not lefty enough to actually post(at the moment I'm not sure I'm feminist enough to post here either,but that isn't stopping me!)

me too, a bird in the hand, WRT looking at the situation for women and girls all over the world.

Oh ISNT, it sounds crap. I can't really advise you because my RL name is Ranty Ranterssondottir, and I still get dumbfounded that people can just not see/care about certain problems.

I wish I was there to make you a cuppa and try to reassure you that losing your emollient qualities (did you say that or am I an oilatum obsessive? ) isn't the worst thing in the world. Sometimes things alter inside you and you see that making life sweet and pleasant for others at the expense of your true feelings might be the feminine ideal, but there's something not fully human about it. When it really matters I mean.

I was saying on the other thread that I am proud of the history of being "shrill", and by that I mean the history of women workers going on strike, of the suffragists/ettes shouting down MPs, of women loudly pointing out that things need to change. There is no point waiting for the world to come round to your way of thinking, it takes lots of people talking (and being disagreed with) to spread the word.

Prolesworth I would love to move to Iceland too, and have actually considered Denmark recently. I was reading a blog though by a US woman (Magpiegirl)who found it impossible to fit in in Denmark and after over 2 yrs is going back home.I still think it might be worth doing though.

Thinking along the lines of the original post, I think people, but especially women,can take it a bit personally when people disagree with them on political / current affairs issues. I remember at the time of the election there were some posters who said "I don't have any friends who vote Tory/Labour. I couldnt be friends with someone who had views like that" and thinking it was a bit odd and, to be honest, close minded.

It's easy to convince yourself you're right if you only hang out with like minded individuals and I think it's important to be able to debate things without allowing them to become personal attacks or "arguments".

There are so many different factors that impact an individual's perception on a given debate, so I dont think you need to think "I cant be friends with this person because they dont have the same outlook as me", unless, of course, by so doing you are compromising your own values.

It's Pandora's Box fear. Lots of women do not want to engage in critical thinking when it comes to feminism and misogyny on just about any level because once you start you can't stop.

Many women choose to believe the 'boys will be boys, it's all just harmless fun, you're a jealous prude if you disagree, happy hooker, rape myths, men are visual, men have needs, women like it really, free choice' propaganda because it is easier that way. And it's a package - you can't just question one part of it because once you do the whole house of cards comes tumbling down and you question the status quo as a whole. Many women don't want to do this and pick the 'you do what you have to to survive in the patriarchy' strategy.

If you start to question where lads mags go on the shelves then you have to examine the fact that these mags are misogynist - then you realise that misogyny is such an inherent part of our society that we don't even see it any more. Then you start to wonder where else this misogyny might be and you start to see it everywhere. Then you end up a ranty radfem blamer who can only connect with people on MN and radfem blogs . (There are worse fates!)

I'm glad you posted this too - I had a very disheartening conversation about pornography with a RL friend I consider to be a feminist the other day. I'm always incredulous and disappointed when women defend misogyny.

I think it is important to speak up for all the good reasons posted on this thread.

Hey ISNT,

I had a similar epiphany recently. My sister getting married and doing all the traditional stuff bar saying 'obey' and her (and my family's) reaction to my ideas that I wouldn't be 'given away' and that I wasn't mindlessly taking my fiancées surname (still undecided about what to do there) and I probably wouldn't be a Mrs. She was shocked and I was surprised that she was shocked!

ISNT, live abroad! I'M not joking.
There are shit bits about BRitain and shit bits about Japan but the shit bits are different, so I've got validation from all angles.
When I get angry about some Japanese thing (like the cement ceiling in the workplace) I get validation from British feminism. Then, when I get angry about some British thing, (like plastic surgery rates or violence against women) I can look to Japan and see it doesn't have to be this way.

And I think the Pandora's box is exactly what's going on Beachcomber.
I just read about the 'vital lies' people tell themselves in the Beauty Myth

I work in social services with a wide range of passionate people, some on my wavelength and some not. I tend to shy away from arguments in the workplace to maintain the status quo and because my views are not shared with all and I don't want to be thought of as some kind of screaming leftie/arch feminist. I just want to do my job and well, and to detract from this by being seen as extremist would compromise that.

One woman on my team is so stupid and loud, there is no point attempting to reason with her and I extract myself from conversations that are non work asap if I can't avoid them. Like ISNT, I often felt after a conversation with her that I had lost, but with hindsight, she had just shouted me down. I pick my battles now at work.

With good friends and acquaintances through community groups etc, I am more forthcoming and love the debates we have, whether we disagree or not!

Morning all

I love this section you are all so lovely and most importantly you mainly agree with me

Pogleswood don't worry about being nosy - I didn't namechange to hide, I just thought if someone saw my screenname at work and they were a MNer it would be possible that they'd "know" me if they were a MNer too. So I'm not in hiding, I was hoping people esp on this section would realise who I was!

I woke up in the night thinking about it again and it seems to have really thrown me, i can't put my finger on why.

i think it was a combination of things-
Really not expecting the response I got
Being a bit surprised that others were so vigorously defending/pushing their argument
Being surprised by how vociferous I was being

It's been a shocker!

I'm thinking moving to Denmark or Japan may well be an option!

Think I might start another thread with a question on it and see what you lot would have said.

And remember, it's difficult being right all the time

ISNT - I get this ALL the time in RL

I have to bite my tongue constantly because people in RL already think I am some militant feminist (which make me laugh because in here I am often accused of being a bit off-centre feminist)

I think MN has warped my mind FWIW - I sometimes find it difficult to continue respect with my friends when they do such un-MN things e.g. letting 3 year olds wear heels, seeing nothing wrong in bras for 5 year olds, soft porn on the bottom shelf, etc.

I think once your mind has been opened, it cannot be closed off again - and despite all the disagreements on here we have some bloody good debates.

Forgot to say in my rantiness hi to ISNT - you made me larf a lot on the leftie threads.

Moving to another country sure is an interesting solution - don't come to France where I am though!

I think it's important to remember that people can disagree with you on certain topics and not actually be Bad People You Must Now Avoid. Feminists disagree on all sorts of things, after all.
If you have to work with/see a lot of someone who has strong views on a particular subject that are the opposite to yours, it's sometimes better to make a bit of a joke about it - 'Oh s/he's off again with the foxhunting/faith schools/internet porn/whatever, come on dearie we've heard it all before' rather than keeping on ranting at each other every time you meet.

No I get that SGB. It was more than one person though, and in an environment where I was just totally thrown at the response I got. If I had been talking to DHs mates, and they had expressed this opinion, it woudn't have phased me at all.

I am normally very easy going, I don't know quite what happened

On this one I know that you for a start would probably disagree with me SGB

Sakura what do you mean by this?

"angry about some British thing, (like plastic surgery rates or violence against women)"

Violence against women is a British thing? that's like saying murder is a British thing it happens everywhere it's not a specific countries thing and also Japan was heavily scrutinised about treatment of women after exposure of rape clubs in Universities. www.youtube.com/watch?v=BTxZXKsJdGU

ISNT: I could have written your post. I have exactly the same issue often in RL and I do sometimes bite my tongue. This is particualry the case with MIL and my parents who have some 'old fashioned' ideas. I just can't be bothered to prolong arguments anymore, but I do make sure that they at least know that I disagree with them. I work in an area where I get to talk about feminism quite a lot so I'm lucky. However, while all of my colleagues tolerate this, I know that many think it's fluff and I am often very shocked about this and about what appearsd to be an endless stream of sexism, even in a field composed of of highly educted, allegedly intelligent people. It's draining, but I KNOW I'm right and that helps.

At the moment the dh of a very good friend keeps making snide comments about feminism in what apears to be an almost obsessive way. I let it go, and let it go and let it go until I finally, politeley but firmly said, please can you stop making those comments. I find them offensive. He was [shocked] but he stopped. For now ... It was very awkward and I didn't want to risk my friendship, but I could not stand it anymore. It was absolutey passive aggressive.

Sorry for mindless rant. I haven't really made a point except thank god for this feminist section and UK feminista. I know I'm not alone and I know WE are right.

Dittany is that a serious book recommendation? Your post is a bit ambiguous and I'm not sure...

Anyway I'm going to do an amazon order

The beauty myth
That half a sky one looks too depressing for me at the mo
Read the female eunuch donkeys years ago (and didn't understand much of it)
That one of Dittany's if she's not making a joke

And one more. Something very very easy for a sleep deprived person - any suggestions?

Dittany I am a bit surprised at how I've been lately - people are a bit and I'm not sure how comfortable I am with it TBH