So...lets talk about Kevin...

[marthamoo]

'We Need To Talk About Kevin' By Lionel Shriver...

These are the questions suggested in the back of my paperback copy for discussion:

Was Kevin born wicked, or is his cold heart the inevitable consequence of an unaffectionate mother? Does the novel answer this question? And do you think the answer is the classic "nature versus nurture" debate - whether character is formed by one's environment or innate - has to be one or the other?

Do you completely trust Eva's version of events? More than once, she admits that she was mistaken about something she assumed that Kevin did. Is she perhaps exaggerating hers son's malignancy to make herself seem less blameworthy, or was she just the only party in this story who saw what he was capable of well in advance of Thursday?

Do you think Kevin was guilty of damaging his little sister's eye? If so, what evidence do you find for this assumption? Would it stand up in court?

Isn't Lionel a man's name? Why is the author actually a woman?

OK, I made that last one up. Have to go to bed now, but I have 8 more questions to type up tomorrow. Better not be just me and JT discussing this!

marvellous and I can't see one error

off to beddy-byes myself now and will ponder the questions in my dreams!

Cop out!

Me too though....night night.

Oooh, I just finished reading this. Found it quite disturbing, but compelling. I knew nothing about it but thought the title was intriuging.

No, I don't think Kevin was born wicked - I think he was born a troublesome baby and because of Eva's antipathy about having a baby she found it doubly hard to respond to him. However, he did have a doting daddy and seemed more comfortable (at least at first) in his company. However, I think he did learn how to be wicked very early, realising that whatever he did, 'Gee Dad was always going to protect him.

Yes, trust the version of events - she admitted when she got things wrong and was quite open about her feelings all the way through - didn't seem like she was trying to hide anything. As fot Thursday she clearly says that when the news hit she never thought for a second that Kevin was responsible.

Yes, did think he damaged Celia's eye but no evidence to support except Eva's instinct that he had (I know she was sometimes wrong). Kevin's coldness towards his sister and Eva's contention that Celia was hardly like to go and search out the plummr(?) and douse her eye in the stuff - all sounds credible to me - and his final act with the eye - grim!

I really wanted to punch Franklin quite often

Next question

Just finished this book and thought it was an absolutely cracking read. I don't think it offers up any answers about nature vs nurture, or the nature of evil, but it certainly raises a lot of questions. I can't stop thinking about it.

Come back MM and JT, I want to join in the discussion!

I think the book is less about the nature/nurture dilemma, more about the expectations we have of ourselves (and each other) about parenthood. Both Eva and Franklin are effectively crippled as parents by the weight of those expectations - neither of them respond genuinely to Kevin. Ironically, it's only after Thursday that Eva starts to build a genuine relationship with Kevin.

I promise I will come back to this on a night when I am not drinking wine.

!! Spoiler alert:

Just finished this and I agree with joolstoos responses. All the way through I just kept thinking how could the mum still visit the son - I mean can you ever forgive your child, esp when a) he is soooo nasty to her all the time and b) he killed your own child and hubby? I really don't know how i could bear it. With the mum you couldn't really say she had any love there in the 1st place could you? Also felt perhaps she may have - if it was true - have involved social workers or some professional shrinks along the way

Really liked the book, took me ages to read - seemed very long and the ending was a real climax

So glad to find this thread as I found this book fascinating.
It seemed to me that Kevin was just born bad. His mother had no problem loving and being affectionate with her second child.
I didn't think he damaged his sisters eye - in the book I think she told her mom that she had got something in it and he had helped her wash it out. I also think she would have been a lot more wary of Kevin.
I can understand why the mother kept visiting Kevin - he was hers and all she had left at the end, all he had left her with. The mother beat herself up throughout the book about being a bad mother but I thought she did her best with a very difficult child. I think probably without being conscious of it she loved him just cos he was her son - maybe just a biological thing that she couldn't help and that is why she stuck by him.
Agree that it was only after Thursday that they could have a genuine relationship - number of reasons I suppose but Franklin wasn't there anymore to pretend they were the perfect family and Kevin had done his worst and tested his mother's love to the absolute limit and suppose she had passed the test, she was still there for him. Cos I think he realised this then think he could start facing up to what he had done and part of that process was saying sorry.
Don't think it is particularly PC but do think certain bad people are just born that way and that they can come from the most wonderful family ever and they are still gonna be monsters.
Phew! - that's what I think anyway.

Wasn't really into the style of writing - although the story was compelling I found it hard going at times - if that makes sense.

I was stunned about Franklin (I can usually suss things) kept waiting to hear his side.

The other thing that quite shocked me was the number of school shootings there are in US - I had to go on line and check to see if the shooting anecdotes were for real - they were

Can I join in please?

I am not sure about the questions as suggested, will have to think about that. I have not read a book for a long time where I disliked the narrator so much! I really had problems with Eva's personality and style of writing, she was so pretentious and pedantic. I found it hard to believe that she would stick in such an appalling situation in real life - she stated it was because she loved Franklin but I never really felt the strength of that love.

I feel that Kevin was probably born damaged in some way to begin with, but I do feel that Eva could be partly to blame as she was such a bloody awful mother. OK, who could love the awful infant Kevin, but Eva seemed so self-obsessed and immature that she could have screwed up any child. I am not convinced she was doing a great job with Celia either - or was that just the effect of having Kevin as an older brother?

I have read a few literary / autobiographical accounts recently of women feeling resentment and rage towards their babies for being so dependent on them, and taking away the women's freedom. This sort of writing seems quite fashionable at the moment. I find it distressing that it is acceptable to say normal women feel this way about their babies. To me if you feel like that you have a big problem. I am not talking about the bad moments or days we all have, but if you seriously feel your child is ruining your life then you need help, not to get a pat on the back for "saying what all women secretly feel".

I think of myself as a feminist, but I think Eva is a result of the twisted effects some strands of feminism has had on motherhood. Eva can only think of gratification of her own needs and only feels successful when she is expressing her power and freedom at work.

I am rabbiting on - apologies - I'm tired and not very good at this but I did find the book fascinating and would love to read more of other peoples thoughts!

I have just finished reading this on holiday and am still quite 'affected' by it.

I don't think Eva was by any stretch of teh imagination a bad mother. She tried so hard, so very hard... But it just seemed to bounce back on her all the time.

I think Kevin was a disaffected child but probably not pure evil. Somehow though the teenage years just took him further and further away from the norm until there was no road back.

I think he did do Celia's face and eye

I also found Franklin very irritating but wondered whether we are all primed to seek out the best in our offspring despite evidence to the contrary.

I can also say that I picked up this book early on in the holiday expecting it to be the usual beach read and a week later have only just finished it! The prose style is quite 'heavy' adn the subject matter quite draining. Like Jools I too had to check whether all these high school shootings were read and sadly they were

Just resurrecting this thread as I've just finished this. I found it very compelling even though I agree with a pp that the narrator isn't very likeable. Franklin is unbelievably irritating too. I found it really hard to believe that any child, however intelligent, could put on such credible different personae from infancy with his two parents. Also, somehow, at the end, it seemed as if he was 'normalising' but I baulked at the idea of beginning to find him sympathetic -which seemed to be kind of intended.
Didn't realise what had happened to Franklin, but thought she wasn't posting her letters to him. Did find it strange that Franklin didn't appear to have testified or been present at either of the trials, or seen her at all after the shootings, so was not entirely surprised....
Still, can't get the whole disturbing shebang out of my mind now...