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Pride and Prejudice - in the view of 2026 society is Mr. Wickham simply a predator?

457 replies

mids2019 · 30/09/2026 20:15

So Lydia is 15 years old and to my (admittedly non literary mind) groomed by Mr. Wickham into eloping. Reading the book now it seems full of victim blaming with Lydia being blamed as much as Whickam for the inappropriate relationship. Is this too simplistic?

OP posts:
ChimpanzeeThatMonkeyNews · 04/10/2026 12:43

FruAashild · 04/10/2026 12:05

Cheapsie doesn't mean it was a poor area. 'Cheap' comes from an old word for market and the street was an important street in London throughout history. Here's an image of it in 1823. And since Miss Bingley is new money coming from trade there is very much a hint of Hyacinth Bucket about her.

I know that.

Benvenuto · 04/10/2026 12:47

Turophiles · 04/10/2026 11:32

Actually, that’s a fair point. Are Jane and Elizabeth partly at fault for not taking the youngest ones in hand themselves when it was clear their parents weren’t going to intervene? They’re not cynical and indolent like their father, or short-sighted and not that bright like their mother, are well aware of how badly brought up their younger sisters are, after all. And they have more to lose from Kitty and Lydia making exhibitions of themselves than anyone.

I’m the eldest of five, like Jane, and while obviously Regency gentry daughters are not going to be doing the feeding and nappy changing work of nursery maids, older daughters being expected to help teach the younger ones was quite usual.

Or is it that Kitty and Lydia have only registered themselves to Jane and Elizabeth as a real, embarrassing problem since they came out and started appearing at Assembly balls etc? Lydia in particular can’t have been out for long if she’s only fifteen.

(Maybe it helps make sense of her boisterous behaviour in public and Lizzy’s mortification at it if it’s all brand new this season. Dancing, men etc are totally novel to Lydia, and Lizzy isn’t used to being mortified by her at balls because it’s only just started to happen?)

Edited

I think the younger 2 got worse after the militia arrived - this is what Elizabeth says after the elopement:

”But she is very young: she has never been taught to think on serious subjects; and for the last half year, nay, for a twelvemonth, she has been given up to nothing but amusement and vanity. She has been allowed to dispose of her time in the most idle and frivolous manner, and to adopt any opinions that came in her way. Since the ——shire were first quartered in Meryton, nothing but love, flirtation, and officers, have been in her head. She has been doing everything in her power, by thinking and talking on the subject, to give greater—what shall I call it?—susceptibility to her feelings; which are naturally lively enough.“

Shloopie · 04/10/2026 12:48

I loved The Other Bennet Sister. I thought it was a frothy delight that no doubt Jane Austen herself would have been rolling her eyes at. Admittedly Mary bore little resemblance to the actual Mary Bennet. TV show Mary was sweet and charming and delighted everyone she came in contact with 😂

And I loved both of her suitors.

Looking forward to sitting by the fire and watching the Christmas episodes.

kxeil · 04/10/2026 13:46

Turophiles · 04/10/2026 11:08

Absolutely, which would make palming his five daughter’s upbringing off on a governess quite natural!

Imagine elegant, refined, not-very-robust Jane Fairfax being hired to educate Kitty and Lydia! Though she and Mary might find common ground over music, and she’d probably like Jane and Elizabeth…

“Imagine elegant, refined, not-very-robust Jane Fairfax being hired to educate Kitty and Lydia”

Lydia would have ‘run rings around’ her!

SerafinasGoose · 04/10/2026 13:51

Shloopie · 04/10/2026 12:48

I loved The Other Bennet Sister. I thought it was a frothy delight that no doubt Jane Austen herself would have been rolling her eyes at. Admittedly Mary bore little resemblance to the actual Mary Bennet. TV show Mary was sweet and charming and delighted everyone she came in contact with 😂

And I loved both of her suitors.

Looking forward to sitting by the fire and watching the Christmas episodes.

I was quite disappointed that this was resolved for Mary with yet another variation of the tired, romantic plot. It's so hackneyed.

I'd have liked to see her an independent woman travelling and running her own school. This reimagined character was no Lucy Snowe or Miriam Henderson, that's for sure.

Turophiles · 04/10/2026 14:11

RemusLupinsBiggestGroupie · 04/10/2026 12:29

Agree that the red and green dress was horrific- like a Christmas tree!

I think I enjoyed it so much because I didn’t view it as P&P, but something entirely itself. I thought the two male leads were great and really liked the portrayal of Caroline Bingley and Mr Collins. I thought the presentation of the latter as somebody who has essentially realised that not only is he a buffoon but that he is also in a loveless marriage to a woman who knows he is a buffoon was quite sweet.

Agree that the presentation of Mary was inconsistent, but I thought the actress did a good job with what she had.

On the whole though, I think my opinion was largely driven by the actor playing the guy she ends up with - I thought he was great and could have happily watched many more hours of him!

Yes, Caroline Bingley was brilliant — I didn’t know the actress, but was pleased to see her giant eyes pop up in this season of Ted Lasso (which is weak, but she’s great). And I liked the treatment of Mr Collins, too. Interesting to see a more nuanced treatment of a ‘flat’ background comic character, and that Mary might have actually considered marrying him, given the chance. And I agree about the Mary actress doing a good job with the character as written, and the camera loves her. I felt the writing was at fault, not her performance.

I think the red and green dress summarised my problem with the tone. Was the viewer supposed to think that such a garment looked nice? Better on Mary than the frumpy high-necked checked dresses she’s put in before she goes to live with the Gardiners? Or the plain lawn dresses in creams and beiges she looks wonderful in later on? Or are we supposed to see it as evidence of Mary’s zany period, even though it’s just as ugly as the dresses she wore at Longbourn? Or a suggestion that she’s colourblind as well as short-sighted? I suppose it raised issues about whether we were intended to trust her judgement in general.

kxeil · 04/10/2026 14:18

@Turophiles “Plus I think I just stopped believing in any of it when the writer had the Merton optician’s assistant attending the Assembly ball!”

That made me laugh! (I haven’t read the book or seen the TV series.)

RemusLupinsBiggestGroupie · 04/10/2026 14:19

Turophiles · 04/10/2026 14:11

Yes, Caroline Bingley was brilliant — I didn’t know the actress, but was pleased to see her giant eyes pop up in this season of Ted Lasso (which is weak, but she’s great). And I liked the treatment of Mr Collins, too. Interesting to see a more nuanced treatment of a ‘flat’ background comic character, and that Mary might have actually considered marrying him, given the chance. And I agree about the Mary actress doing a good job with the character as written, and the camera loves her. I felt the writing was at fault, not her performance.

I think the red and green dress summarised my problem with the tone. Was the viewer supposed to think that such a garment looked nice? Better on Mary than the frumpy high-necked checked dresses she’s put in before she goes to live with the Gardiners? Or the plain lawn dresses in creams and beiges she looks wonderful in later on? Or are we supposed to see it as evidence of Mary’s zany period, even though it’s just as ugly as the dresses she wore at Longbourn? Or a suggestion that she’s colourblind as well as short-sighted? I suppose it raised issues about whether we were intended to trust her judgement in general.

I think the horrible dress was simply to show that Mary was allowed to make a decision of her own, no deeper.

Just done some quick research into regency public balls and they were quite socially mixed, with local shopkeepers in attendance alongside the higher classes. So I suppose it’s not too enormous a leap for the optician to have maybe treated his assistant to a ticket?

RemusLupinsBiggestGroupie · 04/10/2026 14:25

SerafinasGoose · 04/10/2026 13:51

I was quite disappointed that this was resolved for Mary with yet another variation of the tired, romantic plot. It's so hackneyed.

I'd have liked to see her an independent woman travelling and running her own school. This reimagined character was no Lucy Snowe or Miriam Henderson, that's for sure.

See, I think I’m the opposite. I was glad she found somebody who loved her for herself. Being a feminist icon is all well and good, I’m sure, but I think most of us would prefer true love if given the chance.

Turophiles · 04/10/2026 14:27

kxeil · 04/10/2026 14:18

@Turophiles “Plus I think I just stopped believing in any of it when the writer had the Merton optician’s assistant attending the Assembly ball!”

That made me laugh! (I haven’t read the book or seen the TV series.)

He’s very nice, and helps Mary select glasses (after there’s a family fight about whether Mary is allowed to wear glasses), and they bond about reading, but then he bobs up at the Assembly and asks her to dance!

I mean, I know Assemblies weren’t gentry-only, and in theory open to anyone who could buy a ticket and behave, but even the requisite evening clothes would be out of reach for an optician’s assistant!

Like men weren’t allowed to wear trousers or boots. It had to be knee breeches, silk stockings and soft dancing shoes.

kxeil · 04/10/2026 14:33

Turophiles · 04/10/2026 14:27

He’s very nice, and helps Mary select glasses (after there’s a family fight about whether Mary is allowed to wear glasses), and they bond about reading, but then he bobs up at the Assembly and asks her to dance!

I mean, I know Assemblies weren’t gentry-only, and in theory open to anyone who could buy a ticket and behave, but even the requisite evening clothes would be out of reach for an optician’s assistant!

Like men weren’t allowed to wear trousers or boots. It had to be knee breeches, silk stockings and soft dancing shoes.

Thank you for this. It does seem far fetched!

FruAashild · 04/10/2026 15:09

Wasn't he the Optician's son rather than the assistant, he was a doctor by the end of the series so he had some money behind him to pay for that education. Mrs Bennett didn't want Mary associating with him because she wanted her daughters to marry gentlemen but considering she was a daughter of a solicitor herself she wasn't that far above him socially if it wasn't for her marriage. And Mary ended up marrying a lawyer herself in TOBS.

Gertlushthatis · 04/10/2026 15:34

I think the green dresses in the other bennett sister was a nod to her being autistic coded and not quite getting it right but being excited by a new dress nonetheless. I saw it as Lucy and Yak of their era.

I don't think Mr Bennett was permitted to hire a governess because he clearly thinks with his pants. Mrs Bennett would have been keen to ensure there wasn't a pretty young government about I bet.

Londonmummy66 · 04/10/2026 15:36

JA said that Mary eventually marries a clerk - I've often thought maybe they took over Mr Phillips practice and have been imagining Mary curled up in the evening with the law books....

kxeil · 04/10/2026 15:55

RemusLupinsBiggestGroupie · 04/10/2026 14:25

See, I think I’m the opposite. I was glad she found somebody who loved her for herself. Being a feminist icon is all well and good, I’m sure, but I think most of us would prefer true love if given the chance.

"You pierce my soul. I am half agony, half hope"

If a dashing young man had said that to me at an impressionable age, I probably would’ve married him!

Shloopie · 04/10/2026 16:27

SerafinasGoose · 04/10/2026 13:51

I was quite disappointed that this was resolved for Mary with yet another variation of the tired, romantic plot. It's so hackneyed.

I'd have liked to see her an independent woman travelling and running her own school. This reimagined character was no Lucy Snowe or Miriam Henderson, that's for sure.

I see what you're saying. It wasn't exactly breaking new ground. And my friend felt the same as you, she wanted to see a grittier story of a lady forging her own way in the world through career advancements. It was quite Mills and Boonish with an Austen veneer. But it was so charmingly done! Mr Ryder! Mr Hayward! The optician's assistant! Her sisters agog at her eligible gentleman caller. Miss Bingley throwing her corsets to the wind and hot footing it to Italy in pursuit of her man. Wonderful.

RemusLupinsBiggestGroupie · 04/10/2026 16:54

Shloopie · 04/10/2026 16:27

I see what you're saying. It wasn't exactly breaking new ground. And my friend felt the same as you, she wanted to see a grittier story of a lady forging her own way in the world through career advancements. It was quite Mills and Boonish with an Austen veneer. But it was so charmingly done! Mr Ryder! Mr Hayward! The optician's assistant! Her sisters agog at her eligible gentleman caller. Miss Bingley throwing her corsets to the wind and hot footing it to Italy in pursuit of her man. Wonderful.

Throwing her corsets to the wind 😂😂😂

Love this!

FruAashild · 04/10/2026 17:02

I don't care if people didn't approve of TOBS, it was so delightful. And I can't wait to see what happens to Miss Bingley in Italy. We better find out at Christmas!

GloriaNow · 04/10/2026 17:12

RemusLupinsBiggestGroupie · 04/10/2026 14:19

I think the horrible dress was simply to show that Mary was allowed to make a decision of her own, no deeper.

Just done some quick research into regency public balls and they were quite socially mixed, with local shopkeepers in attendance alongside the higher classes. So I suppose it’s not too enormous a leap for the optician to have maybe treated his assistant to a ticket?

I agree about the social mix, they probably kept separate groups within the hall.
The militia are not Top of the Trees either I think, not like Guards or Household Cavalry.

Londonmummy66 · 04/10/2026 19:05

The militia are not Top of the Trees either I think, not like Guards or Household Cavalry.

I bet Col Fitzwilliam spent most of his time propping up Horseguards - I always imagine him as a very dashing cavalry officer with a distinguished war record.

SeedsOfReason · 04/10/2026 19:27

It wasn't exactly breaking new ground. And my friend felt the same as you, she wanted to see a grittier story of a lady forging her own way in the world through career advancements.

Disclaimer - I haven't watched or read this.

The gritty story suggested would be very much a positive ending through a 21st Century lens. It wouldn't have been seen as a happy ending in Jane Austen's time.

Benvenuto · 04/10/2026 19:37

SeedsOfReason · 04/10/2026 19:27

It wasn't exactly breaking new ground. And my friend felt the same as you, she wanted to see a grittier story of a lady forging her own way in the world through career advancements.

Disclaimer - I haven't watched or read this.

The gritty story suggested would be very much a positive ending through a 21st Century lens. It wouldn't have been seen as a happy ending in Jane Austen's time.

That exists - it’s Agnes Grey by Anne Brontë, which is the story of a governess (and is not flattering about the families who hire her or their children).

Turophiles · 04/10/2026 22:00

FruAashild · 04/10/2026 15:09

Wasn't he the Optician's son rather than the assistant, he was a doctor by the end of the series so he had some money behind him to pay for that education. Mrs Bennett didn't want Mary associating with him because she wanted her daughters to marry gentlemen but considering she was a daughter of a solicitor herself she wasn't that far above him socially if it wasn't for her marriage. And Mary ended up marrying a lawyer herself in TOBS.

No idea whether he was his son..?

Possible cost of his training depends on what kind of ‘doctor’ he became. There wasn’t really a concept of doctor as we understand it. You were either a physician (highest rank, attended elite universities, considered fully gentlemen, equal to their wealthy clients — whom they never touched! ), a surgeon (intermediate rank, viewed as tradesmen, trained via apprenticeships, set bones, treated wounds, doing surgery), or an apothecary (lowest rank because they had physical shops, mixed drugs, trained via apprenticeships, though in practice they often were surgeon-apothecaries in small places).

Like when Jane is ill at Netherfield, Mr H (not Dr) Jones the apothecary is called from Meryton , but the Bingley sisters are convinced no country advice is any use and want to send for their London physician. Physicians would only practice in big cities or fashionable watering places like Bath.

Mr Perry in Emma, is also a smalltown ‘apothecary’, but presumably also a surgeon, and as he’s clearly the only medic in town, he sees even the elite of Highbury. We can see how well he’s doing financially, as he’s planning to buy a carriage, which was a sign of a significant income!

Benvenuto · 04/10/2026 22:08

Turophiles · 04/10/2026 22:00

No idea whether he was his son..?

Possible cost of his training depends on what kind of ‘doctor’ he became. There wasn’t really a concept of doctor as we understand it. You were either a physician (highest rank, attended elite universities, considered fully gentlemen, equal to their wealthy clients — whom they never touched! ), a surgeon (intermediate rank, viewed as tradesmen, trained via apprenticeships, set bones, treated wounds, doing surgery), or an apothecary (lowest rank because they had physical shops, mixed drugs, trained via apprenticeships, though in practice they often were surgeon-apothecaries in small places).

Like when Jane is ill at Netherfield, Mr H (not Dr) Jones the apothecary is called from Meryton , but the Bingley sisters are convinced no country advice is any use and want to send for their London physician. Physicians would only practice in big cities or fashionable watering places like Bath.

Mr Perry in Emma, is also a smalltown ‘apothecary’, but presumably also a surgeon, and as he’s clearly the only medic in town, he sees even the elite of Highbury. We can see how well he’s doing financially, as he’s planning to buy a carriage, which was a sign of a significant income!

And the word “doctor” wasn’t just used for medics. Miss Steele in S&S is chasing a doctor, but he is a “doctor of divinity” (a clergyman) rather than a medical doctor.

S&S is now on my list of books to reread - not one of my favourites when younger (due to the dullness of the men) but this thread has reminded me that the other characters are much more interesting.

Sunbringer · 04/10/2026 22:08

He was a predator when it was written too… that’s the whole point of his arc. They know she is too young and naive, but they just didn’t view her as quite so young and child like as we do now. Although worth noting 16 is the age of consent in the UK and so just a year later in 2026 and he wouldn’t be prosecuted. Hardly a huge change when you think about it. A single year increase in morality from then to now. Shocking really.

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