Men Who Hate Women (Laura Bates)

[nonbinaryfinery]

Has anyone read this?

It's not an easy read but I think it's a vital one.

Yes, I read it a couple of years ago. I thought it was very readable and also very depressing. I think things have probably got even worse since the book was written.

The chapter that worried me, especially as the mum of a daughter, was the one about the attitudes of boys and the changes she'd noticed when giving talks in schools.

I haven’t read the book, but I think it’s obvious much of the online abuse is generated by AI nowadays

You'd not say that if you read the book.

Not me. I was in a grubby corner of the internet once where a lot of misogynistic posts were very common . Very miserable to constantly read. Some got deleted but often they stayed up for days. Have to say some women were also extreme misandrists and I came to the conclusion I needed to avoid that sort of content from both sides of the gender war that it was representing.

If you don't want to read the book why are you here?

It was released in September of 2020, and yes I think things are even worse given the antics of men like Andrew Tate who encourage boys and men to be outright evil. I don't often say this about books, but I wish this one was required reading, even though I'm aware it's an extremely tough subject. People are too busy burying their heads in the sand and pretending these things aren't happening, usually the same people who yell "not all men" etc.

I dislike the book

I read it and found it a very interesting and frequently uncomfortable read.

I'm finding that I'm hyper aware now of any comment that could be taken as slightly misogynistic and it then affects how I feel about the person saying it. E.g. my husband talks sometimes about online dating and how hard it is for men and how none of his "nice guy" friends will succeed with women because they're too nice. My brother says similar things and has a weird way of viewing women at times. I find it hard to engage because in the back of my mind I'm just thinking that they don't see women as people but as others.

@nonbinaryfinery I've answered your question. You didn't say that only people who wanted to read it should answer.

Even if that was true, misogynistic content and bots to spawn it don't arise spontaneously.

I'm sadly very desensitised to a lot of this stuff, but even for me it was uncomfortable. Laura even says she can't go and talk about it on radio shows or TV, because the content is so offensive that it would be taken off air, but isn't that the point? The behaviour of boys and men online is so horrendous that it can't be raised and discussed in ways that would help us address things, or people just flat out refuse to read it because then they will have to face what's actually going on.

I read it when it came out and thought it was fantastic. It’s actually been on my mind recently that I need to re-read it as I’ve forgotten some of it.

It's a great book. I took some comfort from the fact that numbers (estimated for the groups etc) were not overwhelmingly high (although still worrying) - I'd be interested to know if they have increased since publication.

Low-level misogyny is absolutely everywhere, and the specific attitudes and groups analysed in the book were really interesting.

It would be interesting to see if there have been marked changes in the last four years.

"Too nice" is absolute bullshit. Tons of women would give anything to meet an honest, decent guy. If they are not clicking with anyone it's not because of some imagined metric of "niceness" that they have exceeded. The fact they aren't willing to think about that more clearly might be part of the actual reason.

I can think of plenty of nice men I wouldn't want to go out with because they are passive, or not genuine, or don't have the same sense of humour, or are a bit self-entitled. Bet they wouldn't give those as reasons, if they're not actually interested in thinking about what a mutally respectful relationship is actually built on.

It’s so relevant and the stats in it utterly depressing. The fact men come along and slate it and say it’s crap is also very depressing. Sounds awful but I’m glad I’ve got 2 boys.

Most of them won't have read it, they will just take the word of whichever problematic men they're all currently listening to.

If they read it and still think everything wrong is the fault of women and girls, well they don't deserve to be anywhere near them.

were they at all boys school? I know this seems stating the obvious but - our girls were at mixed school and well adjusted towards boys/men, then one at an all girls school, subsequently attracts/picks losers, son at all boys Independent school, even with sisters, has entrenched peculiar ideas (like his dad, also boys only school, no sisters) not extreme, not AT ish, but viewed as separate species, result of science based curriculum ?

Most of them won't have read it, they will just take the word of whichever problematic men they're all currently listening to.

It's that utter lack of critical thinking that is deeply unattractive to some women... I mean, it's not even hard to point out how factually flawed some of the underlying claims are.

DH was but brother wasn't.

I think it comes down to social media consumption really. It's hard to counter and even harder to respect because it speaks to a basic inability to see women as people with wishes and feelings instead of foes in a game where sex is the commodity.

I read it this year.
So many headlines I see, near daily, bring it back to the forefront of my mind and can make me feel really hopeless, although I'd still recommend it to anyone. I too wish it was required reading in schools.

Every article about another family annihilator, another terrorist attack targeting women, the bile during the Harris campaign - it reaffirms everything Bates lays out. Especially her chapter on police and government refusal to acknowledge and act on misogynistic hate, if the recognised it as terrorism they'd have to actually implement policies to combat it, have to be seen to give a fuck. And they don't, they exist to serve and prop up the patriarchal systems of power.

You've put this so well, thank you.

I know America isn't the world (thank fuck) but with the orange bastard's inauguration coming up, I feel that violence is going to erupt again for the worse. I've so many friends over there that I'm worried for.

Interesting, thanks.
Here's a link to the publisher:
https://www.simonandschuster.co.uk/books/Men-Who-Hate-Women/Laura-Bates/9781398504653

Can I recommend Joan Smith's Hone Grown. Discusses the overlap in DV and terrorism and aspects such as how some of the men who did nass shootings wouldn't have had gun licences if domestic violence had been taken seriously and treated as a crime.

https://www.hachette.co.uk/titles/joan-smith/home-grown/9781787476066/

Smith wrote Misogonies too after being a journalist at the time of the Peter Sutcliffe murders, and saw first hand how disinterested the police and press were in women. Some is a bit dated now but depressingly a lot isn't.

I believe Hags is interesting too but haven't read that.