Did She Fall Or Was She Pushed? Dangerous Liaisons Readalong 2024

[BishyBarnyBee]

Following a series of successful Fallen Women readalongs - War and Peace, Anna Karenina, Madame Bovary, Ruth - we continue our exploration of desire, hypocrisy, disgrace and redemption with the earlier (and even more scandalous) Dangerous Liaisons.

Widely adapted in text, film, opera and even ballet, Les Liaisons Dangereuses is an epistolatory novel comprising 175 letters.

Author Chodelos de Laclos "resolved to write a book that would be quite outside the ordinary trend, which would make a sensation and echo over the world after I left it." His book was a succès de scandale on its 1782 publication, reviewed as "diabolique" while becoming an instant bestseller. Marie Antoinette commissioned a blank cover copy for her library, and Virginia Woolf later read it with "great delight".

Readalongs are Mumsnet's best kept secret - a quiet corner of the site where we tackle the books we might not manage alone, sharing our thoughts and reactions, and encouraging each other to keep going when life - or the book - are challenging. It's fine to dip in and out as life permits, very few of us manage to keep up consistently.

We've only heard good things about DL, so do join us for a cracking good read. We start 1st May, 1 letter a day:

1 - 31 May Letters 1 - 31
1 - 30 June Letters 32 - 61
1 - 31 July Letters 62 - 92
1 - 31 August Letters 93 - 123
1- 30 September 124 - 153
1 - 22nd October 154 - 175

There are summaries of each letter at shmoop.com. I'll post them when I can, but anyone is welcome to start us off if you are first here on the day.

Looking forward to it!

Les Liaisons dangereuses (Dangerous Liaisons) Summary

Free summary and analysis of the events in Pierre Ambroise François Choderlos de Laclos's Les Liaisons dangereus...

It’s is pretty standard Teenage Emo Boyfriend stuff, in a way — and classic male entitlement when he’s expecting her to have noticed his silence, his gloom etc and to have correctly interpreted them as signs of love, rather than just thinking her harp performance must be worse than usual that day, AND says how could she be angered by him displaying feelings she’s forced him to have, a passion she’s created herself, and that she’s his first ever love? And then he’s wheedling her into a reply, otherwise he’ll think she hates him…

Merteuil would just say ‘Down, boy!’ but of course poor, innocent Cecile goes down like a ninepin…

Spot on, @Burnfort

Letter 18: Cécile de Volanges to Sophie Carney

• Cécile knows replying to Danceny would be improper, but she believes her circumstances are truly unique.
• In fairness, she's only 15, and not much used to boys.
• At the music lesson, Danceny asks if he can fetch her harp (their means of transporting letters).
• She says yes, but she hasn't yet answered his letter.
• Danceny returns looking like he just got picked for the Hunger Games.
• Cécile can't stand seeing him so sad, so she writes a quick note promising to write to him and puts it in the harp.
• He's overjoyed when he sees it and reaches out to squeeze her hand.
• She loves it but knows it's not proper, and pulls her hand away.
• She'll ask Sophie for advice before she writes to Danceny.

"People are always telling us to be kind-hearted! But when it involves a man they forbid us to follow our instincts!"

And there is the dilemma of all our innocent fallen women (Ruth,Tess) and every woman whose basic decency and niceness has ever stopped them just telling a predatory man to fuck off.

Yes Bishy that line really struck me too!

• Danceny returns looking like he just got picked for the Hunger Games.

🤣🤣

I'll admit that I have to keep reminding myself, even though it's about a million years since I saw the Stephen Frears film adaptation, that 'Danceny is not Keanu Reeves. Danceny is not Keanu Reeves.'

(Though, to avoid spoilers, as Danceny turns out later on to be rather good at a spot of duelling, maybe he'd have been excellent at the Hunger Games...?

Letter 19: Cécile de Volanges to the Chevalier Danceny

• Cécile asks Danceny not to write to her again.
• She's changed her mind about writing to him because she's afraid to get in trouble.
• She begs him not to look so sad.

Letter 20: The Marquise de Merteuil to the Vicomte de Valmont

• Certain he won't succeed, Merteuil promises to sleep with Valmont if he can provide proof in writing that he's successfully seduced Madame de Tourvel.
• She can't imagine that a prude like Tourvel would actually admit her lust in a letter, so it's a long shot.
• She thinks Cécile is adorable and finds her budding romance with Danceny pretty amusing.
• She's still cooking up some mischief to embarrass Gercourt.
• Unfortunately for the adorable Cécile, it involves turning her into a "woman of experience."

Up to this point I've been somewhat admiring Merteil for her sheer confidence and no fucks to give attitude. But this letter leaves me slightly queasy. Merteuil is quite deliberately setting out to take away Cecile's innocence and turn her into a woman of the world for the pleasure of an older man. It's too close to the very rare modern cases of women abetting male abusers for their joint sexual pleasure. I knew this was the gist of the book but I'm not loving it at this point.

It’s not for Gercourt’s pleasure, though — it’s to humiliate him. He ditched Merteuil humiliatingly, and as she knows he’s obsessed with marrying a completely innocent, convent-educated virgin, Merteuil wants to turn him into a public joke by making sure Cecile is not only no longer a virgin, but will turn out on her wedding night to be visibly sexually experienced and very far from the innocent convent girl Gercourt confidently thinks he’s married.

Merteuil stresses here as well that Cecile is dying for experience, and that she sees great potential in her — making it sound as if she thinks she’s doing her a favour!

Thanks @Burnfort. This is the great plus of the readalong - it's so easy to miss the point when you read alone, and sometimes the simplicity of the letters format actually makes it easy to miss the bigger picture. That's my excuse anyway.
I feel that using Cecile as a pawn in her revenge game is marginally less depraved than despoiling her for sexual pleasure, but I realise I am playing at the margins of morality here!

Letter 21: The Vicomte de Valmont to the Marquise de Merteuil

• Valmont sends his manservant to find someone unfortunate in the neighborhood.
• He announces he's going hunting, but his real aim is to put on a show for the spy.
• Tourvel, feeling a little guilty at her spying, tries to talk him out of it.
• Valmont heads out the next day and stops at the home of the family in need.
• Their furniture is being taken because they can't pay taxes.
• Valmont covers their debt and gives money to the villagers.
• They thank God for his generosity, and he asks them to pray to God for the success of his plans.
• Remember: this is all a show for the spy. Valmont wants Tourvel to think he's a changed man.
• He figures that with this money, he's paid for Tourvel and has a right to bed her.

Yes, I’m not sure it actually improves anything! Especially if you see Merteuil as lying to Valmont (or maybe deluding herself?) that Cecile is actually dying for more experience and a natural who is likely to turn out a second Merteuil in time, so that the reader isn’t as fixated on this poor innocent bring debauched for the games of two amoral intriguers… I mean, nothing Cecile has said in her own letters suggests anything of the kind.

Is Merteuil just bigging up Cecile’s looks, charm, curiosity etc in the hope that Valmont might still get bored with his pursuit of the Presidente and undertake the job of seducing Cecile?

(Im still reeling from discovering the Presidente is only 22! It makes me wonder whether Merteuil and Valmont are also far younger than I’d imagined…)

Yes, I always wonder whether I just think they're the ages Glenn Close and John Malkovich were they played them (I also saw a good Donmar production with Dominic West and the brilliant Janet McTeer, and Una Stubbs as Valmont's aunt)... Does it change anything if everyone involved is in their 20s?

Madame de Tourvel I think comes across quite strangely in letter 21 -- whatever her curiosity about being stuck as a fellow-houseguest with a notorious libertine who turns out (she thinks) to be unexpectedly nice in person, sending your servant to follow him out hunting, and trying to talk him out of it and sulking when he refuses to cancel his hunting trip (not to mention then writing t Madame de Volanges with a full report!) all sounds a bit mad/unduly nosy. I mean, I get that it's hot, her husband's away for a long time, and the only other person in the house other than Valmont is a woman in her 80s, but still!

I like the way Valmont plays for laughs the bit about being followed and contemplating aiming a shot at Madame de Tourvel's servant, and then gets terribly interested in his own emotions when he rescues the poor family from eviction, as if he's unfamiliar with many of them. Basically, he's saying it felt so good that he thinks that benevolent people shouldn't really get the praise they do because giving is so enjoyable -- and he enjoys the sensation of rescuing the family so much he then gives them everything in his purse as 'payment' and gets slightly snitty they aren't as obviously demsontrative as when he saved them from eviction.

Incidentally, does anyone's edition have any notes about how much money is actually involved by today's standards? Is Valmont giving the family a lot of money when he gives them 16 louis d'or?

This is the Penguin note on the louis, but it's not very illuminating and in fact I think may be inaccurate. It implies he paid half the tax bill, but I think he paid the whole bill then gave some more? He describes 56 livres as a paltry sum, but that could just mean he's fantastically wealthy.

I enjoyed the sly dig at virtuous persons:

"I am astonished at the pleasure one feels on doing good. And I should be tempted to believe that those whom we call virtuous do not have so much merit as we are led to believe"

Is this the classic "bad-un" justification of a selfish/illegal action by telling yourself everyone else is doing it/is as bad? And perhaps a little dig at the virtuous reader to tell them not to be too sure of their own righteousness?

It reminds me how Dickens and Gaskell both explore hypocritical do-goodery. It seems like the question of what it is to be "good" underpins a lot of 18th and 19th C writing - perhaps because the Church is just starting to lose it's medieval grip on the population as the Industrial Revolution turns life upside down?

The chilling question is what Merteuil imagined would have happened to Cecile when Gercourt found out the truth. Best scenario he holds his tongue for fear of public humiliation, but he might well have been so furious that he went public.

Letter 22: Madame de Tourvel to Madame de Volanges

• Valmont can't be an "irreclaimable libertine," Tourvel argues, because he helped a family in need out of the goodness of his heart.
• Clearly Valmont's plan worked.
• Hearing the report of Valmont's good deeds moves Tourvel to tears.
• When she asked him about it, he wouldn't admit it at first. So modest!
• She's certain his actions are a sign that people can change for the better.

Letter 23: The Vicomte de Valmont to the Marquise de Merteuil

• Tourvel reveals to Valmont that she knows about his charitable deeds.
• Valmont's aunt, Madame de Rosemonde, embraces Valmont for his generosity.
• Valmont uses the opportunity to embrace Tourvel as well, despite her attempt to escape.
• The expression of affection leaves her trembling.
• Valmont explains to her that he used to be bad because he was around bad people.
• Now that he's in the company of great virtue—Madame Tourvel—he wants to be good.
• He tells her he adores her and falls to his knees weeping.
• Tourvel completely falls apart, and Valmont's tempted to take advantage her that minute.
• He reminds himself how much better it would be to watch Tourvel slowly succumb to his charms.
• She escapes to her room and Valmont follows her.
• He spies her through the keyhole and sees her in her room praying and in tears.

I did like the description of Valmonts feelings at doing good. Probably one of the most 'dangerous' lines in the book undermining the whole edifice of doing good works at a stroke, and equating Christian morality with libertine philosophy.

Absolutely. You do what feels good. Giving money to the poor here is equated by Valmont to an exquisitely pleasant sensation (like an orgasm?)

Interesting that his immediate response is to ‘pay’ the poor family for his pleasure, although said pleasure was caused by him already giving them money to clear their debt, and that he then goes on immediately to think in monetary terms of his eventual sex with Madame de Tourvel — he’s now ‘paid’ for that by putting down money as part of his charade to impress her, so he can feel ok about treating her however he pleases afterwards. (Or is he just showing off to Merteuil here?)

I would have said that a libertine didn’t ‘need’ to pay for sex, but Valmont definitely seems to default to paying for pleasure here…?

Sorry for lowering the literary standards of the thread, but is anyone else thinking about the Friends episode where Phoebe and Joey argue over whether all good deeds are done for selfish reasons?!

You could argue that relating 18th C literature to 21st C popular culture could be seen as raising the level of our intellectual debate rather than lowering it. I feel like I've watched interminable episodes of Friends but don't remember that one.

I have heard the argument before, and have given it some thought, but basically it's just an argument for being selfish, isn't it? A world where no-one does any good deeds would be a worse world than one where people did do good acts, so it's really just a way for bad people to feel OK about not doing anything for others. Though we know from Dickens that there are some do-gooders who are anything but.

Letter 24: The Vicomte de Valmont to Madame de Tourvel

• Valmont lays a huge guilt trip on Madame de Tourvel for making him miserable. How can she not see his suffering?
• He sees how upset she was about his expression of love and knows she has no pity in her heart. He begs her to teach him how to control his passion for her and reassures her she has nothing to fear from him.
• As if.

He really is awful, isn't he.