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Jane Austen

219 replies

BaconAndAvocado · 13/10/2023 11:34

Currently listening to a Radio 4 adaptation of Sense and Sensibility and loving it.
I’ve read and enjoyed Pride and Prejudice and Emma.

What are the others like?

OP posts:
Mirabai · 19/10/2023 14:40

Fink · 19/10/2023 12:01

It's not only Wentworth, Captain Benwick is also there: a naval captain and a father of young children. You'd think he would have seen the odd head injury in his time.

It is supposed to showcase Anne's comptence and reliability when everyone else falls apart, and it's the turning point of the novel when Wentworth realises that the ideal is a midpoint between being too easily persuaded and being too headstrong, rather than what he'd previously been idealising which is doing what you want no matter what anyone else thinks.

I wonder whether the men falling apart also shows that they really don't have a clue about women. You see the men across JA's books express many variations on the theme of considering women as irrational, over-emotional, unable to make decisions for themselves. Quite a lot of the women have to explicitly make the point that they are actually fully functioning human beings and not some lesser race. Even Wentworth's own sister says to him 'I hate to hear you talking so [...] as if women were all fine ladies, instead of rational creatures.'

Partly it's true that women were expected to eat less, wear restrictive clothing (although not as restrictive as earlier or later styles), and generally be delicate, which does then have genuine health impacts. Witness the fact that Fanny Price is made ill by not being able to ride a horse every day and having to walk in the heat of the day instead. Jane Bennet needs an apothecary and several days' bed rest after a walk in the rain. Marianne Dashwood nearly dies from walking in damp grass and hanging around in wet socks afterwards. None of them have infectious illnesses, which are a whole other category of health risk. All of them, IMO, could have been avoided by building up a stronger constitution through a good diet, comfortable clothing etc. Long and short of it is, you treat women as delicate flowers and that will actually have an effect on their health, and then you don't know how to react because women are such delicate flowers. It's circular. It's notable that, with the exception of Fanny (and possibly Catherine in NA), the main heroine of each book doesn't go in for fainting fits and catching cold because it's a bit damp out, they're usually the more sturdy and sensible ones. I think JA is trying to balance showing that women are stronger than people give them credit for with the reality of living a restrictive lifestyle, which does make people ill (and without germ theory and a lot of other modern science, so the idea that you could get fatally ill from walking in wet shoes was perhaps less ridiculous).

It’s true women were treated as squashed flowers, but actually in an age without antibiotics or antipyretics any infection could turn morbid. They didn’t understand the difference between viruses and bacterial infections, nor if they had could they have done anything about it.

Marianne got “putrid fever”, which was another name for typhus, which historically had a more general meaning than it does now. It was also confused with typhoid. Jane and Cassandra nearly died of it in 1783.

In the book it was meant to be an affliction of the mind as well as body. As Marianne said herself “if I had died it would have been self-destruction”. I always thought it likely that she would have got TB if anything - but that was generally a recurrent illness and JA needed a resolvable one.

NineteenOhEight · 19/10/2023 15:31

Fink · 16/10/2023 22:27

I spent ages trying to think if the actual word shit had crept in anywhere. Not that I can recall so I think it must be the dung cart in Persuasion. Is that right?

Yes! I should perhaps have said ‘euphemistic reference to transport method for non-human excrement’.😀

Fink · 19/10/2023 15:43

Mirabai · 19/10/2023 14:17

The other aspect is that if Louisa hadn’t recovered and even if she he may have to marry her. He realised too late that everyone had the impression he was “courting” her. That’s why he’s so discombobulated.

I thought about mentioning that, but it's only a few days after Louisa's injury that he finds out that the Harvilles, and by extension perhaps others, think that he is as good as engaged. So it doesn't explain his immediate reaction on the Cobb.

JaneyGee · 19/10/2023 15:44

maltravers · 16/10/2023 19:32

I can’t help looking at it with 21st C eyes. He was a shocking flirt, but until he ran off with Mrs R (somewhat contrived resolution where I think JA got herself in hand), was there anything else? I can’t recall tbh.

I know what you mean about having '21st century eyes'. But you don't have to agree with everything an author writes to enjoy their work. If we're not careful, pretty much the entire canon will have to go in the bin (which, of course, is what some woke lunatics want). If you delve too deep, you can find a reason to 'cancel' almost anyone.

Allthegoodnamesarechosen · 19/10/2023 15:47

CesareBorgia · 13/10/2023 12:31

Mansfield Park is my favourite.

Mine too. Fanny is a much more subtle heroine than most of her others, less dazzling, not the centre of attention, with no real friends or supporters except for the fickle Edmund and the devious Miss Crawford. And yet she is the only character with real moral strength and probity ( which is eventually recognised by everyone who matters).

Mirabai · 19/10/2023 16:57

Fink · 19/10/2023 15:43

I thought about mentioning that, but it's only a few days after Louisa's injury that he finds out that the Harvilles, and by extension perhaps others, think that he is as good as engaged. So it doesn't explain his immediate reaction on the Cobb.

Sure but he knows he’s been overtly flirting with her, his later shock is how far everyone thought it had got. At the time of the fall he realises he’s not in love with her.

NineteenOhEight · 19/10/2023 17:06

Fink · 19/10/2023 15:43

I thought about mentioning that, but it's only a few days after Louisa's injury that he finds out that the Harvilles, and by extension perhaps others, think that he is as good as engaged. So it doesn't explain his immediate reaction on the Cobb.

Significant that that scene has never, to my mind, been filmed in a way that doesn’t look contrived and often vaguely ridiculous — it’s just too difficult to make Louisa jumping from a fairly low height into Wentworth’s arms fall badly/hard enough to get a significant head injury without looking like he was at fault or found her too heavy to catch, or like a bit of an idiot.

Might have been easier to pull off with the deeply silly Dakota Johnson Netflix Persuasion from last year, where Wentworth is already in floods of tears before the opening credits, and Anne appears to have morphed into Bridget Jones complete with drinking and comedy disguises (not to mention rather showy metallic eyeshadow throughout).

Farmageddon · 19/10/2023 17:32

Mirabai · 19/10/2023 16:57

Sure but he knows he’s been overtly flirting with her, his later shock is how far everyone thought it had got. At the time of the fall he realises he’s not in love with her.

Agreed. I also thought the scene was in part to highlight his own frailty and weaknesses, as up to that point he he was still angry with Anne for her lack of conviction in bowing to the pressure from her family not to marry him.

When he and Louisa were walking in the fields and talking, he compliments her strength of character, but I guess the scene where she jumps showed her to be a bit more frivolous and his reaction showed him to be less level headed than he previously would have given himself credit for.

Fink · 19/10/2023 17:57

Mirabai · 19/10/2023 16:57

Sure but he knows he’s been overtly flirting with her, his later shock is how far everyone thought it had got. At the time of the fall he realises he’s not in love with her.

We may be talking at cross purposes here. I was only thinking of his immediate reaction to the fall, while they're still on the Cobb, not his more general response to the injury. By the time they get back to the Harvilles he has recovered somewhat and is able to make plans about taking the women back to the Musgroves. It is only in the first moments after the accident that he's in shock and useless and looking to Anne to be told what to do. I don't think at that stage there are any rational thoughts in his head about who he loves or his own behaviour or any of that.

When he talks to Anne at the very end of the book, he tells it that it was in the days after the accident that he has time for reflection and comes to realise that he still loves her and not Louisa. It's clear that all the self-knowledge comes through when he ponders it later, not instanteously at the moment of the fall.

Fink · 19/10/2023 18:25

NineteenOhEight · 19/10/2023 17:06

Significant that that scene has never, to my mind, been filmed in a way that doesn’t look contrived and often vaguely ridiculous — it’s just too difficult to make Louisa jumping from a fairly low height into Wentworth’s arms fall badly/hard enough to get a significant head injury without looking like he was at fault or found her too heavy to catch, or like a bit of an idiot.

Might have been easier to pull off with the deeply silly Dakota Johnson Netflix Persuasion from last year, where Wentworth is already in floods of tears before the opening credits, and Anne appears to have morphed into Bridget Jones complete with drinking and comedy disguises (not to mention rather showy metallic eyeshadow throughout).

Yes, the film versions can be a bit hammy for that scene. I think it's a bit unclear in the book how far she fell from. If it was right at the top of the steps head first onto the hard pavement, I don't think the bad head injury is implausible, especially given it was noted as being a very windy day so she could have landed slightly off where Wentworth thought she would. I don't like the 2022 Dakota Johnson version (for anything, obviously, it's dreadful, but even the stair jump scene I don't find realistic) because it looks more like she loses her balance and slips rather than jumps. Plus the 2022 version has Wentworth too far away for her to have possibly thought he could catch her at all, the point is supposed to be that he puts his arms out half a second too late, not that he's half way down the Cobb having a chat.

I think the 1995 fall isn't bad, overall, as long as you assume that it's filmed out of sequence so that she starts to jump before Wentworth starts to run towards her, otherwise it's impossible to explain how he didn't get to her in time.

Mirabai · 19/10/2023 18:46

Fink · 19/10/2023 17:57

We may be talking at cross purposes here. I was only thinking of his immediate reaction to the fall, while they're still on the Cobb, not his more general response to the injury. By the time they get back to the Harvilles he has recovered somewhat and is able to make plans about taking the women back to the Musgroves. It is only in the first moments after the accident that he's in shock and useless and looking to Anne to be told what to do. I don't think at that stage there are any rational thoughts in his head about who he loves or his own behaviour or any of that.

When he talks to Anne at the very end of the book, he tells it that it was in the days after the accident that he has time for reflection and comes to realise that he still loves her and not Louisa. It's clear that all the self-knowledge comes through when he ponders it later, not instanteously at the moment of the fall.

I’m talking about his immediate reaction. It’s difficult enough to say what goes on in a real person’s head let alone a fictional character, and we’re surely aware that literature is open to interpretation. But I’ve always interpreted his shock on the cobb to be - her fall was his fault, he realises how stupid he’s been indulging a childish impetuosity, he realises he’s not in love with her, his feelings crystallise in the moment. How responsible for this am I? And what does that mean for my life?

Something serious happening to someone you know can make your feelings clear - and it can be immediate ime.

In the days that follow he realises he’s not in love with her because he’s in love with Anne, as he later confesses.

Wishingwell57 · 19/10/2023 19:57

I am reading Pride and Prejudice for the nth time.

On my Kindle, when Lady Catherine de Bourgh visits Elizabeth at Long Bourne, the wording is:
"Yes, madame," said Mrs Bennet, delighted to speak to Lady Catherine.

I am sure that I remember from somewhere "delighted to speak to a Lady Catherine."

A tiny point and I may be mistaken. But I thought the second wording showed Mrs. Bennet's innate snobbery.

JaninaDuszejko · 19/10/2023 20:12

My version say 'a Lady Catherine'. It's my Mum's copy, a Collins hardback from the 1960s. It says it's 'a carefully edited version of the 1813 and 1817 texts'.

Wishingwell57 · 19/10/2023 20:15

JaninaDuszejko · 19/10/2023 20:12

My version say 'a Lady Catherine'. It's my Mum's copy, a Collins hardback from the 1960s. It says it's 'a carefully edited version of the 1813 and 1817 texts'.

Oh, thank you! I'm so pleased to have that corroborated. I must have had the printed copy at some time and read it there.
As soon as I read it, it just jumped out at me.

Fink · 19/10/2023 22:49

Yes, it's a Lady Catherine

@Mirabai we'll just have to agree to disagree. As you say, it's open to different interpretations. I was just going by the chronology of what the characters actually say. But certainly you can think that there's something else going on inside their heads at other moments.

maltravers · 20/10/2023 00:56

I think there are parallels between Anne and Fanny. They both patiently wait and love without hope.

Mirabai · 20/10/2023 10:16

Fink · 19/10/2023 22:49

Yes, it's a Lady Catherine

@Mirabai we'll just have to agree to disagree. As you say, it's open to different interpretations. I was just going by the chronology of what the characters actually say. But certainly you can think that there's something else going on inside their heads at other moments.

There’s no disagreement, you have your interpretation, I have mine, they’re both valid perspectives.

MsAmerica · 23/10/2023 01:12

BaconAndAvocado · 13/10/2023 11:34

Currently listening to a Radio 4 adaptation of Sense and Sensibility and loving it.
I’ve read and enjoyed Pride and Prejudice and Emma.

What are the others like?

@BaconAndAvocado The pleasure of reading Austen is that all her books are alike in their elegance and humor.

The downside for some people is that they are also all alike in their narrow focus on women, manners, and marriage.

BaconAndAvocado · 23/10/2023 08:32

MsAmerica
They are very much of their time..

At times charming and gentle and then, by today's standards, quite shocking regarding gender roles.

One of the things that stood out for me in S and S was the open discussion of an individual's annual income and their resultant appeal, or not, as a marriage candidate.

I guess in this respect things haven't changed but have become more subtle.

OP posts:
CurlewKate · 23/10/2023 08:43

@MsAmerica
"The downside for some people is that they are also all alike in their narrow focus on women, manners, and marriage."

Hmm. Not sure why a focus on women is considered a downside even if I agreed that it's true. Austen was very good at men, too. Look at Mr Collins, for example. Mr Bennett. Mr Bingley. And the gloriously awful John Thorpe. To pick just a few. And one of my favourite quotations "Elizabeth had not before believed him quite equal to such assurance; but she sat down, resolving within herself to draw no limits in future to the impudence of an impudent man.

Mirabai · 23/10/2023 09:07

Marriage used to be an economic contract much as a legal or romantic one. It still can be in some developing countries.

NineteenOhEight · 23/10/2023 09:24

Mirabai · 23/10/2023 09:07

Marriage used to be an economic contract much as a legal or romantic one. It still can be in some developing countries.

Yes, and in JA’s world, it was the sole ‘career’ available to women of her class, the alternatives being being kept by male relatives after the death of your father (as JA and her sister and mother were for years, living in a perpetual round of lengthy ‘visits’ to family members, and which is what Charlotte Lucas is facing when she leaps at the chance to marry an idiot with decent prospects, only her younger brother is already moaning about having her left on his hands), genteel poverty in a couple of rented rooms like Mrs and Miss Bates in Emma, or Mrs Smith in Persuasion, or governessing like Jane Fairfax plans to in Emma (if sufficiently well-educated/accomplished).

She knew about women’s poverty, and economics is always at play in her romances.

I mean, supposing none of the Bennet girls married well before Mr Bennet’s death, they’d have been living in a few rooms above a shop in Meryton, on their mother’s tiny income, their marital prospects much reduced, and while Jane might have made a decent governess, or Lizzy, or, at a pinch, Mary for a family that wasn’t concerned with her teaching their daughters social ease and etiquette, just music and academic subjects — no one would have employed Kitty or Lydia.

Emma is fortunate to be so financially secure she can look on marriage only as something she would consider only were she to fall in love. Even Fanny Price is essentially threatened with a life of poverty as punishment for refusing Henry Crawford.

HonoriaLucastaDelagardie · 23/10/2023 09:51

I mean, supposing none of the Bennet girls married well before Mr Bennet’s death, they’d have been living in a few rooms above a shop in Meryton, on their mother’s tiny income,

I suppose Uncle Gardiner might have helped a bit, but he had his own children to bring up and get established.

NainAGP · 23/10/2023 09:52

I'd love to watch the Elizabeth Garvie version of P&P, has anybody seen one available recently?

CurlewKate · 23/10/2023 09:59

I'm also a little surprised when people describe Austen as "gentle"....

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