Trans - Helen Joyce

[MillicentTrilbyHiggins]

I read (and agreed with) this book earlier in the year.

But I always tell my dc that if they read this kind of book, as in non-fiction but also an opinion not fact (arguably) then they should also read something written 'from the other side. '
For example DS read The God Delusion. Followed by The Dawkins Delusion.

So is there an 'other side' book for Trans? I'm not expecting to change my opinions, but I'd like to read the other side of the debate.

If you go into any bookshop, especially Waterstones, you'll struggle to find a feminist section but there will be a prominent LGBTQ+ section (mostly trans or queer books, fewer gay and even fewer lesbian).

I can't recommend any because when I have flicked through, they seem pretty dire.

That was my worry, that they were all dire. I was hoping someone would know of a decent one.

I'd be interested in this too. Have started "Trans" and it seems pretty sensible so far, but there are some pretty rabid reviews on Amazon (not surprising given the polarization in the argument).

One 1* but "reasonable" review says "Helen Joyce presents an overview of the subject which seems fundamentally intellectually incurious and potentially biased. Since her topic is trans people and their struggle for human rights, it is odd that she does not present any academic study or advocacy from trans voices. Instead, she rehashes discredited and frankly weird fringe theories such as "autogynephilia" and "rapid onset gender dysphoria" as if they were modern contributions to the field... In all, any potential reader would do well to study the decades of publications from trans people - from Sandy Stone to Paris Lees - who can give better insight than this limited offering."

Have been meaning to look into the two names that they mention.

Autogynephilia is not a 'wierd fringe theory' it's what transwomen are all about.

Bugger, Waterstones!, hadn't noticed the LGBT etc group favouritism at the expense of a good feminist section, I 'll say something next time I'm in as I spend a lot of money in there

I’d recommend Spiked’s reviews of books by Grace Lavery, Paris Lees, Shon Faye et al. Probably a lot more enjoyable than the books themselves.

Not quite what you asked for but the author of the 2020 International Booker (The Discomfort of Evening) identifies as non-binary. I've not read the novel because the story is about the death of a child and suppose to be quite distressing but I've only read good reviews of it.

Jan Morris's memoir of transitioning Conundrum would be the closest thing to a classic about transitioning. Again I've not read it.

I read Shon Faye’s latest (ok read - but disagreed with about 95% of her arguments)

Also read Juno Dawson’s “gender wars” Bit shit and disagreed with all her arguments. But as an insight into being a gay young man (which she was initially) it was ok. But made me sad that she didn’t feel comfortable being a gender non-conforming gay man 🙁

Love Helen Joyce’s book but Kathleen Stocks Material Girls is even better

I would recommend reading the views of Suki Morris, Jan's daughter, as a counterbalance if anybody does read Morris's book. There are several articles online. I've linked to the Daily Mail because it's the only one I can see not behind a paywall, but there are probably archived versions of the Times/Sunday Times and Telegraph articles. https://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-11527279/Celebrated-writer-Jan-Morris-bully-hug-children-daughter-claims.html

Thanks everyone. I've reserved Shon Faye's book at the library. I also found one on amazon called "The end of gender" which apparently offers both points of view. But my library don't have it, and I have to really want a book to pay full price for it! I'll look out for some of the others listed here, including Material Girls.

I get wanting to see both sides of a political or philosophical debate but reality and science are only on one side of this debate.

Maybe in addition to Helen Joyce’s books you could recommend checking out the opinion’s of relevant scientists in the field such as Robert Winston and Richard Dawkins. Seems a pity to waste valuable reading time on the equivalent of Flat Earthers.

But the "other side" of this debate claim they do have facts, figures etc that are backed up by science. I'd like to read them. Even though it's not going to change my mind.

I agree that I would be interested to hear the other side’s view if it was backed up by reputable scientific fact but I do not believe this case has been made, hence the refusal to take up the many invitations to debate.

Not exactly what you asked for, but 'the witch trials of jk Rowling' podcast is really good and attempts to provide balance by talking to people on both sides of the debate.

I have tried to be more balanced but unfortunately as I don’t believe in gender identity as a “thing” then nothing those on the opposite side of the debate can say can win me over. Because there are no facts or evidence any more than there is evidence that god exists! All the reading has done has prob made me a bit more compassionate - but that’s as far as it goes!

I've listened to some of the witch trials podcast. I really should finish it!

The Witch Trials are fantastic, such an interesting thoughtful programme.

Scientific American is fully signed up to 'the other side' and frequently publishes pieces purporting to present 'scientific' support for that side, e.g. Why anti-trans laws are anti-science, 2021.

I am not aware of Scientific American ever hosting anything even mildly critical of the concept and ideology of 'gender'.