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War and Peace readalong thread 2022 - thread 3

672 replies

VikingNorthUtsire · 19/07/2022 06:58

Welcome to the third thread. Please see the OP in threads 1 or 2 for the full info.on the readalong, links to different editions and translations, blog posts, etc.

I think most of us are established now so for this post I'll just re-shsre the reading schedule

Different editions name and number their chapters differently - some refer to four books divided into parts (as below), others refer to fifteen books although it's essentially the same structure just with different numbering. Hopefully there's enough info below to keep us all in sync, and always happy to let anyone know via PM what's happening in today's chapter so we can keep together.

Book 1: 1805
Book 1 Part One (25 chapters): 1/1 - 25/1
Book 1 Part Two (21 chapters): 26/1 - 15/2
Book 1 Part Three (19 chapters): 16/2 - 6/3
DAY OFF: 7/3
Book 2: 1806-1812
Book 2 Part One (16 chapters): 8/3 - 23/3
Book 2 Part Two (21 chapters): 24/3 - 13/4
Book 2 Part Three (26 chapters): 14/4 - 9/5
Book 2 Part Four (13 chapters): 10/5 - 22/5
Book 2 Part Five (22 chapters): 23/5 - 13/6
DAY OFF: 14/6
Book 3: 1812
Book Three Part One (23 chapters): 15/6 - 7/7
Book Three Part Two (39 chapters): 8/7 - 15/8
Book Three Part Three (34 chapters): 16/8 - 18/9
DAY OFF: 19/9
Book 4: 1812-13
Book Four Part One (16 chapters): 20/9 - 5/10
Book Four Part Two (19 chapters): 6/10 - 24/10
Book Four Part Three (19 chapters): 25/10 - 12/11
Book Four Part Four (20 chapters): 13/11 - 2/12
DAY OFF: 3/12
Epilogue One 1812-20 (16 chapters): 3/12 - 19/12
Epilogue Two (12 chapters): 20/12 - 31/12

OP posts:
Thread gallery
13
CornishLizard · 13/12/2022 14:44

True Fuzzy but I wouldn’t have taken kindly to my dh going away for 6 weeks when we had a 3 month old, even in the unlikely event I had agreed to 4 weeks!

DesdamonasHandkerchief · 13/12/2022 17:50

And we're back in the room....

Totally agree with the comments about the respective marriages and how jarring it is to go from the dramatic life and death of the war and its aftermath to domesticity,

Love how Pierre & Natasha get each other and talk over each other and instinctively know what the other is thinking about, so they can touch on wide ranging subjects and topics but always know what the other one means.
Wasn't so keen on the jealousy angle.

It is typical that Tolstoy made much of Natasha 'letting herself go' and running to fat now she's committed the cardinal female sin of getting older!

Even Denisov sees her in a new light: 'like looking at a badly painted portrait of someone near and dear. A sad look of bored indifference, one or two irrelevant remarks, and a constant stream of nursery talk was all he saw and heard from the seductive creature of days gone by,'
She only briefly regains her beauty in his eyes when Pierre returns and she is
once again lit from within 'Her face was transformed, flooded with a new radiance, and joyful brightness.' because after all what is a middle aged woman without a man!

Nice to catch up with retired general Denisov though and see that he's still a family friend. Sad that he never seems to have married.

The real tragic figure of this novel for me is Sonya, the 'sterile flower' who is tolerated by all but loved by none.
Nikolai seems embarrassed by her and Natasha and Marya are jealous and mistrustful of her. Where once she and Natasha were like sisters now it is Marya and Natasha who form a bond and exclude her, treat Sonya as 'other' - hired help, a necessary irritation.

How terrible for Sonya to spend everyday with the love of her life (and his wife!) knowing that the love they shared as teenagers can never be rekindled. And whilst he has definitely moved on she's stuck in the past.

She definitely peaked too early and has never been made completely welcome in any family she's lived with throughout her life. Poor Sonya!

DesdamonasHandkerchief · 13/12/2022 18:06

Loved the digested read Guardian article, but when I read stuff like this it does make me wonder if they actually read the book!:

Andrew observed Natasha longingly. “Marry me, please,” he begged. “Oh, I do love you ever so much, Nick,” Natasha replied, but my father is making me wait a year and I’m bound to have developed une grande passion for the inside of Anatole’s trousers by then.”

DesdamonasHandkerchief · 13/12/2022 18:15

And whilst I'm spamming the thread, here are the summary of Epilogue 2 and the analysis of both epilogue's from Gradesaver!

Epilogue Part Two
Tolstoy discusses the relationship between the life of a nation and the lives of individuals. He explores the question of whether people have free will if, as he argues, history is predestined. He argues that God resolves the tension between freedom and historical necessity. Individual freedom is the ultimate force that drives human history. They’re not at odds, Tolstoy says; necessity follows from freedom.
Analysis
Tolstoy’s epilogue to War and Peacece^_ is notorious for its subversion of what an epilogue normally does. Instead of providing closure to the main story, this epilogue continues the main story but raises new questions rather than simply resolving old ones. When Pierre goes to Moscow on Freemason business, Tolstoy elliptically refers to the upheavals that would take place in that organization in the nineteenth century. However, he leaves the reader to guess how this might affect his characters.
In the epilogue, which takes place in 1820 (eight years after the end of Volume IV), Tolstoy offers us glimpses into two marriages – those of Natasha and Pierre, and of Nikolai and Marya. The tension in Nikolai and Marya’s relationship evokes the many small tragedies that led to it in the first place: Marya’s imprisonment by the violent muzhiks, Nikolai’s cold rejection of Sonya, Prince Andrei’s deathbed advice to his sister. In contrast, Pierre and Natasha have no such baggage. Although their marriage may come as a surprise, it is built on platonic friendship and self-sacrifice. This leads the novel’s two main characters to a loving and tranquil relationship based around a recognition of life's simplicity.

Tolstoy’s sophisticated essays in this section are some of the most challenging parts of the novel, and some translations even omit them. However, they help tie the novel’s many subplots together. War and Peace’s many vignettes of military and home life all illustrate the relationship between individual free will and historical predestination (or, as Tolstoy calls it, ‘necessity’).
According to Tolstoy, no individual can change the course of history. Since history is determined by so many minute decisions by so many people, no single person – however powerful – can bend history to his or her will. This worldview is radically democratic, and it explains the parity in the story between real historical figures like Napoleon and Kutuzov, and insignificant fictional characters like Sonya and Pyotr Rostovv_. If anything, the real historical characters in War and Peace lack the emotional power of the fictional ones.
However, history also affects individual lives. In some ways, this novel can be read as a treatise on the devastating toll that national conflict takes on individual people. Every character either dies or suffers a major loss in their family, and many of these tragedies are directly or indirectly caused by war. War also elevates those who sometimes do not deserve it; consider Dolokhovv’s status as a war hero, or Boris Drubetskoyy’s astonishing ascent into high society. The novel ends with these philosophical thoughts, which implicitly makes Tolstoy's point that what is in our power as individuals are the choices we make, and our willingness to accept the simplicity of faith. We can make others happy and attempt to make ourselves happy, we can continue to ask questions about morality rather than acting selfishly, and we can enjoy life, thankful for when it is good.

DesdamonasHandkerchief · 13/12/2022 19:26

And from Shmoop:

What's Up With The Ending?

Here's how you know Tolstoy was a pretty clever dude. Back in the 19th century, writers were constantly complaining about how hard it was to end a novel. And with good reason. Think about it: you're doing your utmost to describe life as realistically as possible, and then suddenly, just like that, you're supposed to tie it all up neatly: give out rewards to the good characters, punish the bad ones, and, if you're really on the ball, marry them all off to appropriate life partners. Seriously, that's a tall order. Tolstoy? He just bypasses the heck out of that tradition. War and Peace has two separate endings, and neither one follows any kind of novelistic formula.

The first ending deals with the fictional characters. It's really only an ending in the most basic sense of the word, though, meaning the part of their stories that we've been following ends. Nothing gets wrapped up, everything is left loose, and there aren't any rewards or punishments because Tolstoy never divides his characters up into good and bad.
Instead, the whole thing maintains as much realism as possible. Sure, some people get married – but who would have predicted the pairings that end up happening? Just like in life, it's not necessarily the case that these are the perfect matches – maybe they are, maybe they aren't. And rather than ending with marriage, as was typical in a 19th-century novel, Tolstoy shows us some of what happens afterward. We see some kids, we see a little bit of the characters' parenting styles, and we can try to imagine what their lives might be like going forward. In fact, we're pretty much told to do so, since it's hinted strongly that Pierre and his godson Nikolenka are going to end up taking some part in the plot to kill Emperor Alexander a few years after the novel ends.

The second ending is even farther from the traditional novel. It's a long, dense, difficult treatise spelling out Tolstoy's issues with the way history was written at the time. The big fad was the "great man" theory of history. To explain anything, you just had to find the nearest awesome leader and point your finger at him. Tolstoy thinks this kind of thinking is lazy at best and just straight-up dumb at worst.
For him, history needs to expand in every direction: outward, to cover not just the rulers at the top, but also the common people, who actually participate in events; backward, to show how events long ago affect events later on; and inward, to show a person's actions in relation to the forces compelling those actions.
It's way deep, and it goes on for some 50 pages. No way Dickens ever finished a novel that way, we'll tell you that much. Whipping out a philosophical essay about the nature of power to end an already intense book? That takes some real moxie.

[My highlight above 👆, as this completely passed me by, but I suppose Tolstoy's readers where well versed in the assassination attempt and it was more recent history for them]

DesdamonasHandkerchief · 13/12/2022 19:36

18 Novel Facts About War and Peace

www.mentalfloss.com/article/85834/18-novel-facts-about-war-and-peace

IsFuzzyBeagMise · 13/12/2022 19:41

I have missed Shmoop. Good to see you again, Shmoop!

Thank you for all of that, Desdamona. I agree with your comments* *in your post too about Sonya and Natasha.

No, I didn't pick up on that at all (highlighted lines). Interesting!

DesdamonasHandkerchief · 13/12/2022 20:02

This article mentions the assassination attempt:

www.mentalfloss.com/article/85834/18-novel-facts-about-war-and-peace

It's fact 2:
Leo Tolstoy was inspired by the Decembrists’s revolt of 1825.
The Russian count’s original plan for War and Peace was nothing like the end product. Tolstoy envisioned a trilogy that centered on the attempted overthrow of Tsar Nicolas I by a group of military officers who became known as The Decembrists.
The first book would examine the officers’ lives and ideological development during the Napoleonic Wars. The second book would focus on their failed uprising, with a third book following the officers during their exile and eventual return from Siberia. Tolstoy saw the uprising as a seminal moment in Russian history—a turning point in the nation’s history when Western ideals clashed with traditionally Russian ideals. As Tolstoy began writing, he was so taken with the time period surrounding the Napoleonic Wars that he decided to make it his sole focus.

And if you're not War & Peaced out by now there's this article from The New Yorker:

www.newyorker.com/magazine/2007/11/26/movable-types

IsFuzzyBeagMise · 13/12/2022 20:03

DesdamonasHandkerchief · 13/12/2022 19:36

Loved this.

Tarahumara · 14/12/2022 08:44

Me too! Loved that article. Imagine sitting through a 6 or 8 hour film, or a 60 hour live reading!

IsFuzzyBeagMise · 14/12/2022 10:56

I love the idea of taking part in a readalong like that.

I also enjoyed the newyorker article Desdamona. I may not have grasped all of it having zoned out a bit, but I liked it. * *

BakeOffRewatch · 15/12/2022 18:42

I have just finished the book proper. It is such a wierd place to end it! Just Natasha like oh did that really happen! I’d be so annoyed as a contemporary reader. I think it should have ended with Pierre returning to peace post-war, being indifferent and happy and loving of all. With the Natasha/Pierre love it seems like the author started something and never developed it let alone finish.

I will probably speed read the epilogues next week.

well done everyone!

Stokey · 15/12/2022 20:23

Just catching up having finished the first epilogue. Loved the John Crace digestive especially this:
"That’s handy,” said Pierre, appearing out of nowhere. “Maybe I can marry you instead.”

“Yes please,” Natasha whimpered. “I can give up my singing, we can have four children and I can become a right old drudge, because Leo thinks that submission is a woman’s natural state.”

Poor Sonia, I feel like she missed out on a happy existence but I guess that's more likely to be the lot of a poor orphan. Had no idea about the assassination attempt. I also feel like I should read a bit more about Napoleon to see how Tolstoy's vision fits with modern views.

Thanks so much everyone for the year's read, particularly @DesdamonasHandkerchief for all the summaries.

Bracing myself for the second epilogue, final philosophical push.

SanFranBear · 16/12/2022 17:48

I'm so sorry that I haven't been around the last couple of weeks but we moved house on the 3 December and it's been a catalogue of disasters which are only now, sort of coming to an end.

I will endeavour to finish the first epilogue tonight as I have been reading but hadn't got to the bit with actual people I can about in yet. Looking forward to it, given all your comments!

I'll post my thoughts tomorrow as I definitely want to end the reading with you all - it's been a real treat to have your companionship as I read this again and would love for us to crack on into next year with another.

I've already thrown Les Mis into the ring but honestly, I'm open to other offers (although not Dickens - really don't like Dickens... or Hardy... or Homer... Hmmm - maybe not as open as I thought 😆)

IsFuzzyBeagMise · 16/12/2022 18:12

Good to hear from you @SanFranBear Best of luck setting into your new home!

DesdamonasHandkerchief · 18/12/2022 11:38

Is anyone ploughing through the second epilogue?
I've started it on audible but it still has 2 hours to run 😩

CornishLizard · 18/12/2022 11:48

I haven’t started ep2 - the copy I’ve been reading has gone back to the library, but I bought myself a copy early on that I didn’t get on with so well, am taking a few days off and will skim through so I can say I’ve read W&P!

ChessieFL · 18/12/2022 11:50

I have finished it all. The second epilogue is really dull!

cassandre · 18/12/2022 12:01

Glad the house move is finally sorting itself out, SanFranBear!

I’m just catching up after several weeks of having lost my reading mojo. The final weeks of the uni term were super exhausting, as they always are, and then admissions stuff, which normally takes up one further week at the end of the autumn term, took up TWO weeks. I kept trying to read for pleasure in the evenings but my brain just wouldn’t comply.

Anyway I won’t name check everyone, but thanks so much to all for the brilliant comments and links, especially Viking for the link about Tolstoy’s wife Sophia, Cornish for the John Crace digested read (haha!) and Desdamona for that wonderful New Yorker piece by James Wood. And thanks again Desdamona for keeping us going all year long. I’ll never forget your witty summaries at the beginning of the year.

I really enjoyed the first epilogue and here are the scatty notes I made when I finished it, although some comments have been better made already by other posters:

Epilogue, Part One, Ch 1: I wonder whether Tolstoy isn’t going too far here with his assertions that people’s views about what is good and what is evil change over the course of history. For example, he says, ‘as we follow the development of historical science, we see that the view of what the good of mankind is changes with each new year, with each new writer; so that in ten years what seemed good looks like evil, and vice versa.’ I do see his point to an extent, but what about an historical event like, say, the Holocaust?! That was unambiguously evil. OK, I know the Holocaust hadn’t happened yet when Tolstoy was writing, but maybe he should stick with his theorising about the French invasion of Russia and stop trying to generalise so much about all of human history!

Ch. 4: I do like the extended bee analogy to explain how humans see events from different perspectives. Very clear and gripping.

Ch. 5: Poor Count Rostov.

Ch. 6: A very romantic chapter end with Nikolai and Marya finally confessing their love to each other. Love it!

Ch. 7: Tolstoy’s conservative attitude towards serfs is emerging strongly again in this chapter. Nikolai is a firm but fair master and the serfs love him. OK.

Ch. 8: Sonya as ‘sterile blossom’. I’m really not happy with her fate.

Ch. 9: Interesting depiction of marital strife and its resolution in the relationship of Marya and Nikolai. I like the fact that Tolstoy doesn’t just end his story with marriage and happy ever after, but tries to give some depiction of what marriages can be like.

Ch. 10: Another portrait of marriage, this time Natasha and Pierre’s. I have mixed feelings about this chapter. On the one hand, Natasha is a bit of a rebel; she doesn’t care about the gender norms that say wives should look and behave a certain way. On the other hand, Tolstoy’s conservative notions about women and family also come through strongly here. Natasha’s entire focus is now on her family, and the narrator seems implicitly to approve of this. [Nota bene: having read Desdamona’s comments about Tolstoy’s fixation on how older women let themselves go, I now think that maybe Natasha’s lack of concern about her looks is not so feminist after all!]

Ch. 11: Pierre loves babies and Nikolai just doesn’t see the point. Ha.

Ch. 12: Interesting and rather sad portrait of Countess Rostov. She is ‘already past sixty’, so clearly Very Old. Ahem.

Ch. 13: I do love the fact that Denisov is back and warmly embraced by the family circle.

Ch. 14: Nikolenka, the son of the dead Andrei, is completely infatuated with Pierre (the father figure he never had).

Ch. 15: More insight into the marriage of Nikolai and Marya. Marya’s diary is all about her children. At least now she has found a focus for all that religious zeal.

Ch. 16: Love the way the story of the characters ends with Nikolenka. Through him the memory of Andrei, and of Pierre’s friendship with Andrei, will be kept alive.

Now to read epilogue 2 and the appendix!

cassandre · 18/12/2022 12:14

Sorry for the super long post.

About next year’s read, I’m not a huge fan of Les Miserables (I read it decades ago and remember the digressions as being long and tedious), but I’ve enjoyed this year’s read along so much, I will be tempted to join in regardless of which book people choose.

Sadik · 18/12/2022 12:18

I've got as far as the end of Epilogue 1 and definitely lost enthusiasm. I'm determined to get to the 'proper' end though before Christmas.
I think most of my thoughts have come up already - Tolstoy's attitudes to serfs and women in particular.

Also very sad about poor Sonya. When Denisov reappeared I thought that perhaps Tolstoy was heading for a match there, but clearly poor relations need to know their places.
I've thoroughly enjoyed the readalong experience with you all, so thank you!

Tarahumara · 18/12/2022 12:43

I'm still in the first epilogue, I need to get moving as I'll be gutted if I fail to finish in time after keeping up all year!

cassandre · 18/12/2022 14:44

I also meant to thank Viking for doing such a brilliant job of setting up the threads and providing the timetable and links about the relative merits of the different translations!

On the topic of women in the novel, it strikes me that the contrast between Pierre’s two wives, Helene and Natasha, says it all really. Helene is just as beautiful and self-centred after marriage as she was before, she has the temerity to pursue her own sexual desires outside marriage, and she tries to have an abortion (for which she pays the highest price). Natasha on the other hand stops caring about being beautiful after her marriage, and devotes herself entirely to husband and children. Tolstoy really has the madonna / whore opposition going on, sigh.

Sonya, however, illustrates that even if you are a beautiful woman prepared to sacrifice everything for the man you love, you might still be out of luck.

IsFuzzyBeagMise · 18/12/2022 15:22

Thank you for your really good commentary today and during the year, cassandre. It has been illuminating!

Thank you to everyone on the thread who took part in the readalong over the year. This book has been an amazing read and I will never forget it :) I may pick up my weighty paperback and read random chapters again in the future but not the second epilogue.

DesdamonasHandkerchief · 18/12/2022 17:56

Thank you cassandra, I enjoyed reading your 'scatty notes' too and it was nice to have the first epilogue broken down into chapters and review what happened in each one.