War and Peace readalong thread 2022 - thread 3

[VikingNorthUtsire]

Welcome to the third thread. Please see the OP in threads 1 or 2 for the full info.on the readalong, links to different editions and translations, blog posts, etc.

I think most of us are established now so for this post I'll just re-shsre the reading schedule

Different editions name and number their chapters differently - some refer to four books divided into parts (as below), others refer to fifteen books although it's essentially the same structure just with different numbering. Hopefully there's enough info below to keep us all in sync, and always happy to let anyone know via PM what's happening in today's chapter so we can keep together.

Book 1: 1805
Book 1 Part One (25 chapters): 1/1 - 25/1
Book 1 Part Two (21 chapters): 26/1 - 15/2
Book 1 Part Three (19 chapters): 16/2 - 6/3
DAY OFF: 7/3
Book 2: 1806-1812
Book 2 Part One (16 chapters): 8/3 - 23/3
Book 2 Part Two (21 chapters): 24/3 - 13/4
Book 2 Part Three (26 chapters): 14/4 - 9/5
Book 2 Part Four (13 chapters): 10/5 - 22/5
Book 2 Part Five (22 chapters): 23/5 - 13/6
DAY OFF: 14/6
Book 3: 1812
Book Three Part One (23 chapters): 15/6 - 7/7
Book Three Part Two (39 chapters): 8/7 - 15/8
Book Three Part Three (34 chapters): 16/8 - 18/9
DAY OFF: 19/9
Book 4: 1812-13
Book Four Part One (16 chapters): 20/9 - 5/10
Book Four Part Two (19 chapters): 6/10 - 24/10
Book Four Part Three (19 chapters): 25/10 - 12/11
Book Four Part Four (20 chapters): 13/11 - 2/12
DAY OFF: 3/12
Epilogue One 1812-20 (16 chapters): 3/12 - 19/12
Epilogue Two (12 chapters): 20/12 - 31/12

Oh that's interesting @BakeOffRewatch. Maybe all Tolstoy's praise of Kutuzov had an ulterior motive?!

Hi @BakeOffRewatch Briggs uses 'simpleton' in the chapter "What difference did it make to him, a man in a crowd of simpletons, the only one who understood the enormous significance of what was happening?'

And 'valet' in the final two lines. "No man is great to his valet because the valet has his own special concept of greatness."

I don't think these last lines make a whole lot of sense or add anything useful as a conclusion to the chapter.

Interesting bit of detective work there on the Tolstoy/Kutuzov connection!

Good work, Bakeoff... impressed with your family tree skills!

Hello! I'm still reading and have been enjoying this thread and the discussion, but haven't felt I have much to add recently.

I've just realised that this is the final book, the next two sections are epilogue, which explains the tone of winding things up. I feel like Tolstoy has started drawing a line under his characters, showing how far they've come and where they've got to, etc. Pierre having found a kind of peace, settling Hélène's debts, fixing up his Moscow house, so you can imagine him moving on to settled middle-age with none of his old angst. I'm looking forward to finding out how Marya and the Rostov family are doing and how their story will be tied up.

I'm still reading too and have just caught up. Have found the last couple of months a bit of a drag compared to the first half of the year when we just galloped through.
I wonder if the draging out is deliberate like the French retreat is drawn out?

Looking forward to resolution. I'm not sure I can face the epilogue.

Ooh also wondered whether the Wittgenstein that appeared was related to the philosopher, but maybe it's just a common name.

26/11/22

Volume IV, Part 4, Chapter 14

As people return, Moscow begins to revive.

I am back in the room 😊 caught up on a stretch of very dry war chapters by reading your discussion and the daily synopses (thank You so much again, Desdemona , for these). I was heartened to find everyone struggling and sick of war chapters at this point. Which I am guessing is surely deliberate on Tolstoy's part, right? He doesn't want us riveted and entertained, he wants us sad and disillusioned and frankly bored, sick of the pointlessness of it all and longing for normality.

sick of the pointlessness of it all

I think you're right... because it has been pointless! I know they had to defend their country and Napoleon was a power-crazed narcissist who thought he could just keep taking stuff but what did they really end up with?

I'm glad you're back, Viking! When you said you were thinking of skipping/skimming chapters, I thought of 'The Rights of the Reader' list by the French novelist Daniel Pennac. As I recall, the 'right to skip pages' comes quite high on the list!

And thanks from me too, Mb76, for those evocative images.

I'm happy to be back with Pierre again, in his new chilled-out post-war incarnation. The text leaves no doubt as to how happy he is to be free of his wife (!).

I also thought the concluding sentence of the first para of Ch. 12 was quite comical: 'Though the doctors treated him, let his blood, and gave him medications to drink, he nevertheless recovered.' It makes it sound as though he was lucky to survive 19th c. medical care...

BakeOff, interesting question about the lackey sentence in Ch. 5. Briggs' translation of the 'lackey' word as 'valet' makes me wonder if Tolstoy is riffing on the French proverb, 'No man is a hero to his valet.' ('Il n'y a pas de grand homme pour son valet de chambre.') In other words, the valet understands the superficial nature of greatness / celebrity.

This does seem to fit with the previous sentence about Kutuzov: 'This simple, modest and truly majestic figure could not fit into the false form of the European hero, the imaginary ruler of the people, which history has invented.' So I suspect the implication is not that Kutuzov is literally a lackey/valet, but that he has a humble man's ability not to be dazzled by the trappings of greatness.

I keep falling off the 50 book thread too. When my uni term starts, it's like a vortex that swallows me up 😦. I have two weeks left before term ends, and I can't wait. Since Covid and its aftermath I just don't seem to have the same energy I did before. Sigh. At least the end is in sight.

Hi maranella, Viking and cassandre!

Cassandre, your explanation made so much sense. Spot on! Chapeau! 😄

The other thought I had reading that rather disjointed Kutuzov-lackey-valet chapter was about the lofty ambitions (or complex machinations) of the powerful compared to what "the man on the street" experiences. Politicians or generals may feel that they have scored a righteous victory in, for example, leaving the EU (or indeed joining it) - but what difference does it actually make to ordinary people?

That's how I read this bit anyway

if we do not apply to the activity of the masses goals that existed only in the heads of a few dozen persons, it is easy now to understand the significance of the event, because the whole event and it's consequences lue before us.

That is, look at it through the lens of the actual effects and not the principles or the complex plans that led to it, and you'll see the truth of the matter.

27/11/22

Volume IV, Part 4, Chapter 15

Pierre arrives in Moscow, where many people are glad to see him. Soon thereafter, he visits Princess Marya to express his sympathy about her brother’s death. Natasha is there when he arrives, although he does not recognize her at first because her former joy in life has been replaced with “sad questioning” (1112). It is clear to everyone that Pierre still loves her.

That was a good chapter, the gentle reunion of Pierre, Natasha and Marya.

I'm a couple of chapters ahead, was really enjoying being away from the endless moralising war sections - only now we're into Tolstoy's opinions on women <sigh>

28/11/22

Volume IV, Part 4, Chapter 16

Pierre, Natasha, and Marya discuss the deaths of Pyotr and Prince Andrei. Natasha confides in Pierre about her suffering.

I was heartened to find everyone struggling and sick of war chapters at this point. Which I am guessing is surely deliberate on Tolstoy's part, right? He doesn't want us riveted and entertained, he wants us sad and disillusioned and frankly bored, sick of the pointlessness of it all and longing for normality.

I agree. I know from studying both the first and second world wars how fed up everyone was long before either conflict ended. Fed up of the war dragging on, of the horror, the mud, the filth, the cold, everything being destroyed and broken, and the utter futility of it all that led to so many unnecessary deaths. For me, the epitomised by the death of Petya Rostov - so utterly sad and futile - what a waste of young life - but that's what so much of war boils down to for those that know the soldiers personally - that awful waste.

I have been in such a slump and so busy at work that I am so very far behind. I’m Volume IV, Part I, chapter 11 basically where Pierre is a prisoner and he is lined up with the others to potentially be shot/watch them be shot. It’s really quite harrowing, in spite of the fact that I have read this before!

As we are (sort of) nearing the end anyone care to give me a mall précis of what I have missed. Are we going to watch the series after this? Do we have a new read for 2023, I know we’ve discussed many?! Any other news. I’ve cleared my other readalongs so now committed to catching up.

I got stuck around the same place and caught up by reading the posts on here with the daily precis of each chapter. Meant I kept up with the discussion and opinions as well 😊

Good to see you StColomb! We have in the main just been keeping up with the daily chapters and the end of section analyses (big thanks to Desdamona) and not been planning ahead at all. We're nearly at that point, I suppose. It's hard to believe the end is in sight! Two possibly really grim epilogues to go!

Hi StC, maybe best to look up the Gradesaver summaries to get a feel for each chapter and whether it's worth reading, but it's definitely worth reading the section where we meet Denisov and Dolokhov again - Volume IV Part 3 Chapter 4 & 7 to 11 in full.

I'm definitely up for a watch along when we've finished the book, the most recent BBC adaptation is really well done imo.

As far as a read along next year I'm planning to read Vanity Fair but I think that was rejected, and I'm not sure I could read a chapter a day when it was a book I've never read before I'd either lose interest or devour it!

28th and 29th November 2022

Volume IV, Part 4

Chapter 16
Pierre, Natasha, and Marya discuss the deaths of Pyotr and Prince Andrei. Natasha confides in Pierre about her suffering.
Chapter 17
Pierre tells the story of his captivity to Natasha and Marya, emphasizing the moral lessons he learned from the experience. As they prepare for bed, Natasha and Marya talk about how much they like Pierre.

I loved these two chapters, back to the key characters but both Pierre and Natasha have grown so much.
Tolstoy's dissing of clever women made me laugh " who when listening are either trying to memorize what they are hearing... Or to adapt the story to their own experience and come out with quick clever comments... ". Rather than "real women with a talent for selecting and absorbing all the best things a man can show of himself". Yes Tolstoy, we're here to absorb men's greatness.

I loved this chapter too, especially "We imagine that when we are thrown out of our familiar rut all is lost, but that is only when something new and good can begin". Very hopeful. I'm going to pretend that Tolstoy meant that "women" remark also to apply to men.

Next year I would love to read some Dostoevsky but have no idea if it is suitable for a chapter a day.