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To read How White Feminism betrays Women of Colour

61 replies

OneDrop · 18/03/2021 11:55

This book has just been suggested to me
White Tears Brown Scars

To read or not to read. I’m feeling exhausted and I’m in the middle of moving home but it’s an important conversation.

I’m a person of colour and was recently invited to an online allies group who will be discussing this book and ‘Whites’ on Saturday morning.

I was willing to go through a fair bit of discomfort at Greenham Common. Maybe putting time in here is more important to my children than unpacking...

OP posts:
NiceGerbil · 18/03/2021 14:29

I also agree that taking class analysis personally is what many feminists get angry about when men do it.

NiceGerbil · 18/03/2021 14:30

It's interesting though that this is the 3rd thread I've seen about white feminists and racism, on 3 different boards, in 2 days.

Seems like a very very hot topic all of s sudden.

Loopyloututu2 · 18/03/2021 14:31

I would unpack first and then read it - I couldn’t sit and read a book whilst there were boxes everywhere.

ghostyslovesheets · 18/03/2021 14:33

feminism is a global movement but with in there are still issues of privilege and insular thinking - some times that leads to a some what colonial approach rather than an empowering one - I do agree OP

was also at Greenham! I'm old

BurgundyBells · 18/03/2021 14:33

Ah. A discussion on how white women are just as much to blame as men because their feminism doesn't centre woc.

Lovely. Can't see how this would be problematic or cause division at all.

fivelemons · 18/03/2021 14:34

Feminism is largely promoted by white women and therefore mainly reflects the interests of white women

Firstly, why are there not more black women promoting feminism, and secondly, why would fighting for (say) maternity provisions or equal pay be presumed to be reflecting the interests of only white women? Surely those issues benefit all women.

Feminism is about promoting equality, not divisiveness based on colour.

Greensidepark · 18/03/2021 14:34

This is a valid discussion to have, extending it beyond the book. I find that there is a class and colour blindness to feminism which is important to tackle. I will give you an example. I was part of discussions around increasing the participation level of women on boards. A very important issue. But this same women were very reluctant to engage the very companies on issues around a living wage, something that disproportionately affects women too.

You may think that of course we need to tackle issues one at a time, but the women leading this discussions were already women of a certain level of influence with these companies and in society. One may think that the issues considered of paramount importance were issues that benefited a certain class of women.

NiceGerbil · 18/03/2021 14:35

Audio book sounds good OP.

I've never tried it myself but also with work house kids I have a pile of books to read and never pick them up! My attention span seems rubbish as well. Used to be able to read for hours!

Sorry got sidetracked by the responses into posting stuff that wasn't really to do with your OP. Audiobook and meeting sounds good!

tangerinelollipop · 18/03/2021 15:53

Why must we divide women?

^This

OneDrop · 18/03/2021 16:34

I’m surprised this thread has been moved.

I was asking whether I should or shouldn’t put time into an important issue given my mental exhaustion with it and circumstances vs the long term impact on my children of avoiding this difficult issue.

This now seems to be a different thread altogether and the thread title means something completely different when not in AIBU.

Can anyone enlighten me? Have I misunderstood a rule?

OP posts:
drspouse · 18/03/2021 16:40

@rosetylersbiggun

drspouse you sound unhinged.

I'm very sorry you loathe black women so much but please don't spread your nasty vicious racism here.

Not sure why you're trying to drag trans issues into a debate about how racist many white women can be.

I see my post has been deleted. I'm pretty sure whoever reported it didn't actually understand it. I have also seen a lot of accusations of "white feminism" where the accuser was rounded on by Black women saying "hello, over here, we are Black radical feminists thank you". So some commentators think that only White women are radical feminists. I was curious as to whether this book was the same.
NiceGerbil · 18/03/2021 16:48

Because it's hopeless to say that different types of women talking about their issues and how they are often invisible in various movements is a good thing not a bad thing.

I've got a disability from birth which has had a different impact on me as a woman than it would a man.

Feminists often reference disability as an intersection but in reality it's not actively on the agenda for lots of feminists. And tbh why would it be if it's not personal.

The personal is political etc.

I do think these things need discussion.

The book title seems to have set people off- book titles need to catch attention. I don't think it's on to dismiss it as divisive if you haven't read it.

NiceGerbil · 18/03/2021 17:10

Why not read it, drspouse?

drspouse · 18/03/2021 17:28

@NiceGerbil

Why not read it, drspouse?
If it has that premise, I don't see the point. If it's about genuinely intersectional feminism a la Reni Eddo-Lodge I'll be all over it. Would be handy to know before spending money though.
NiceGerbil · 18/03/2021 17:43

Your OP has hit on an ongoing topic where there are very strong views OP.

As your thread was in AIBU aka fight club, people were reading the title and jumping in. Many won't read your OP.

That's why it's been moved to somewhere quiter where you are more likely to get relevant responses.

You have done nothing wrong.

Also YA definitely NBU to prioritise something you will enjoy :)

drspouse · 18/03/2021 19:01

YA definitely NBU to prioritise something you will enjoy
Very much this!

Number3BigCupOfTea · 18/03/2021 19:13

Im white but the sort of feminism i care about is safety for women in the law, supports for the poorest women, refuges and womens aid and legal aid being accessible, supports to access training, removing obstacles to financial independence, affordable childcare etc

I read "white tears brown scars" and i dont understand how "my" feminism is harming anybody or how feminism differs for white women and women of colour.

I see there are extra obstacles for black women, but to not identify with feminism because it doesnt also take race in to account is hard to understand.
Why do some black women not identify with feminism? Why do they consider it white?

FlaviaAlbiaWantsLangClegBack · 18/03/2021 19:14

It sounds like it means you'll have to do a lot of extra mental effort at a time when you're already busy so that people can demonstrate how good allies they are...

If it interests you, I'd ask the group to postpone until a time it's more convenient to you if they want your input because you're moving house and exhausted.

I'm a bit cynical about people declaring themselves allies to anything though.

ImaginaryDragon · 18/03/2021 19:43

OP you I cam understand why you feel weary and conflicted as you are in the middle of a move. Defintely get the audio book. Whist there were comment that infoybd reassuring. I will be honest reading others has made me weary. Its like Fragility bingo. My take way is- Angry BW; Prove it; I dont see it; BW have a distorted perspective/ are ungrateful; Why don't BW..? and one of my favorites - A twist on the I have black friends who agree with me. Just wow!

elkiedee · 19/03/2021 00:17

Admittedly I might not have seen this thread if it wasn't in What We're Reading, but I'm concerned to see that it was moved here without prior discussion with the OP, given the subject.

Was it originally in Am I Being Unreasonable? I'm also not sure that's the best place for intelligent rather than confrontational debate on the subject.

Are you the only adult in your household? How old are the kids?

I don't see why, if you feel happy to take part in the discussion and that you will find a discussion with the ant people who are likely to be involved - is this a regular group, friends or people who have read and want to discuss the books and/or issues involved, you shouldn't take time out from unpacking to do so.

Do you have boxes labelled/organised so you can prioritise urgent stuff you need short term, then take time and get the kids (and/or others if there is still stuff to do when you're out of lockdown measures etc where you are)?

rosetylersbiggun · 19/03/2021 04:18

I think a few posters need to read at least a basic primer on white feminism. The concept of white feminism has nothing to do with black women rejecting all feminism or black women thinking that feminism is inherently white, or black women not knowing what a woman is (wtf??).

It's black women rejecting white women who promote feminism while actively or passively engaging in racism, or who simply ignore the fact that black women experience sexism and misogyny in a different way from white women, or who actively exploit feminism in order to be racist. (Like all the cases in America where white women have phoned the police and faked being in tears and lied about feeling threatened in order to harass some ordinary black man, black woman, black child, black family, innocently minding their own business swimming in a public pool or having a picnic in a park. That's abusing feminism because it exploits tropes about female vulnerability.)

Of course some black women have come to the decision that they don't feel comfortable in modern feminist discourse at all because of all the racism. Some choose not to use the term "feminist" for that reason. It doesn't mean they're against the core values of feminism.

It's a bit like a woman saying she's not interested in joining a "male rugby" team, and her friends acting baffled and saying "but why do you believe that rugby is male? Why do you reject all rugby?" She doesn't, she just doesn't want to join that one specific team that advertises itself as being men-only. Not wanting to join a "male rugby team" doesn't mean you hate rugby or think all rugby is male. Just like rejecting a person/group/theory that excludes or is racist towards black women doesn't mean you're against all feminism or think all feminism is racist. No one thinks all feminism is racist!

But there is a history of feminists and feminist movements actively exploiting or engaging in racism. For example, some early American feminist groups stole specific phrasing and blueprints from abolitionist (anti-slavery) groups, or tried to align and compare the domestic oppression of white American women, with the oppression of black slaves. That's racist. It's the same as someone saying "the scale of misogynistic violence is basically the Holocaust." No it's not. The scale of misogynistic violence is terrible but comparing it to the Holocaust is unnecessary and completely offensive to Jewish people. There's other specific examples of feminist history being racist, for example some of the suffragettes actively campaigned against black men being allowed to vote. Stuff like that are what black women are talking about when they say "white feminism."

It's the same thing with disability. A lot of feminism ignores disability and ignores the fact disabled women experience sexism and misogyny differently from able-bodied women. As women we are oppressed by our biology and our bodies, and being disabled puts an extra layer on that. Feminism has to acknowledge that. There's basic stuff like how many feminist spaces lack disability access so disabled feminists can't even get in the room. If you can't get in the room, how can your voice be heard? But other stuff that's more ideological. For example, I can't count how many times I've attended feminist lectures or discussions where someone - usually a slim, conventionally attractive able-bodied white woman - has said something along the lines of, "all women and girls are sexualised from a young age, every single woman and girl gets cat called, yadda yadda." But if you're visibly disabled you're far more likely to be de-sexualised than the opposite. I'm not saying that disabled women are never harassed because of course that's not true, but disabled people are treated like they're sexless and infantalised all the time, it's a well-known form of ableism. The reason this is a feminist issue is that both those responses come from the same misogynistic place, which is the patriarchy's assumption that women exist to be pleasing to men's eyes.

Number3BigCupOfTea · 19/03/2021 07:18

Good post @rosetylersbiggun thank you.

JingsMahBucket · 19/03/2021 07:49

@rosetylersbiggun excellent post. Thank you for doing the work.

OneDrop · 19/03/2021 22:21

Thank you, I’m really grateful for your responses. We’ve into our new home 🏡 I can hardly believe it, it feels like a miracle.

OP posts:
Sadik · 19/03/2021 22:32

Really helpful post @rosetylersbiggun thank you. OP, I'm sorry your thread got moved if that's unhelpful to you, but I'm glad to have seen it here in the Books topic as it looks like an interesting & useful read. I hope your move goes smoothly & that if you decide to go along to the group that you find it productive.

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