Dorothy L Sayers

[Footle]

@missclimpson and anyone else. These preposterous stories seem to be my main lockdown reading. What is it about Dorothy L? Which books do you like best? I started with Gaudy Night as it sent me to sleep nicely , but didn't really enjoy it till quite a long way in. Odd book.

The tone is different, but the pedantry delightfully similar in Sarah Caudwell's detective stories. She was a barrister herself, and the books are set among legal folk – who are more This Life than Rumpole.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sarah_Caudwell

One of my mum's favourite books as a teen was The Franchise Affair! I read it recently, and even though I've read plenty of books of that era (and was a child of the un-right on seventies ) I was shocked by the talk about the girl at the centre of the story!! No better than she ought to be etc etc!!

Great suggestions. Love the Alice B. Toklas, wish I had the brownie ingredients right around now! I’ve never found any novels from the period that, for me, rival Sayers as far as British detective fiction is concerned, there’s a depth to her characters that seems lacking in so many other novels – Christie a prime example. But I agree Josephine Tey’s work is well worth reading. Also a Townsend-Warner fan, particularly Lolly Willowes, I have her diaries waiting on my pile. I’ve liked a lot of the Persephone list, Greenery Street although it’s a gentle comedy captures some of the atmosphere of 1920s culture that’s so fascinating in Sayers’s books. I don’t usually like contemporary pastiche but the Maisie Dobbs series is actually not bad. Maisie is a former WW1 nurse turned private detective, and the discussions of the war and the ‘lost generation’ reminiscent of Sayers’s work.

And Footie I sympathise about your glasses, was overdue an eye test and new specs but the appointment was cancelled because of lockdown, my existing glasses are okay but have to squint a bit so not ideal.

Well, this thread just cost me £6.99

What did you get??

Sorry, @BitOfFun , but you'll be lucky if that's all it costs you.
I'm wondering if there are any younger women on this thread - asking because it was a 12yr old granddaughter who got me started, when she recently read Clouds of Witness with her mum. I haven't read that one yet.

Thanks for the recommendation - have just bought the first Sarah Caudwell for 99p on Kindle. I see she is Claud Cockburn's daughter; I always enjoyed his writing.

Jill Paton Walsh’s own series (Imogen quy) is clever and gentle however you feel about her carrying on wimsey after DLS. I moved on to Ngaio marsh, margery allingham- the tiger in the smoke is the classic- also christianna brand good for wartime atmosphere. I was enjoying campion but They are period pieces and a few of the breathtaking bits of casual racism and sexism unfortunately just turned me off.

I love DLS so much, I have read and reread them all. It's a bad sign if I'm reading it actually as it's my comfort read.

I likeLord Peter, funny, witty, urbane, intelligent. I know DLS is a snob and racist too at times, but I can take that as being of its time.

My fave is provably Murder Must Advertise as the office life is just spot on. Also love Strong Poison and Gaudy Night.

Loving the quotes on this thread! Is this by any chance Mr Jones of Jesus? Who are you calling a bloody Welshman? 😀😀

They are period pieces and a few of the breathtaking bits of casual racism and sexism unfortunately just turned me off.

I find this such a difficult attitude to understand. Surely any creative work denuded of the language and mores of its time would be worthless? And we can't expect every single previous culture to ascribe to our own best values.

Vellum thanks so much for the info about fadedpage. That’s my reading sorted for the rest of lockdown.

Excellent thread. I agree with all points about Death Must Advertise - so snappy! so 20s! so office life! - the only downturn for me is the cricket match that I don't understand at all but it does have the upside of being a plot turner.

Re: the glorification of Harriet's no-fuss walking kit - there is a similar thing in Busman's Honeymoon where she's in bed musing on how the tables have turned and it's now men who have to spend more time on grooming, since the 20s have brought liberation to women in matters of beauty. Didn't last long, did it. But it's a great by-the-by capture of what fantastic changes were being made in women's lives at the time - and that's one of the reasons why I love detective fiction of that era, they teach you history as an aside.

DLS is a terrible snob yy and there's a lot of class prejudice all around. In itself educational I feel, and it actually forms a backdrop to many a MN discussion (if you think about it a little too deeply). Actually I found it hardest to read the one with their children and the casual discussion on how much they're going to beat them up. The rest of the stuff felt historical and far removed, but that was a a little too close to home.

I also love Josephine Tey, Margery Allingham, Ngaio Marsh

I was going to suggest Margery Allingham . Tiger in the Smoke is a masterpiece though there is not so much of Albert Campion in it. I like Ngaio Marsh, but Alleyn is irritatingly perfect- no interesting flaws. Josephine Tey is very good, particularly The Franchise Affair and Brat Farrar. Also Daughter of Time, if you like a historical mystery, though I don’t think serious historians reckon much to it.

Yes, @banivani, it’s that bit about a woman just washing and stepping into two or three garments, while the Poor Old Menz have to shave. Agree it didn’t last long! (Imagine Harriet being confronted with Brazilian vs Hollywood at a beauty salon before her wedding.) Mind you, Harriet is also depicted as wearing tweeds and a tie, possibly immediately after that — for some reason the tie kills me.

Yes to DLS being utterly class-conscious — her treatment of Miss Twitterton in Busman’s Honeymoon (which I like despite its oddities) annoys me every time, especially the scene where Harriet and Peter remark on her getting Harriet’s title right, so she’s had some previous brush with the aristocracy. But I agree, it’s educational to see how naturally it determines her characterisation.

And of course it’s far from unique. I’m reading Enid Blyton‘s Five Find Outers with DS and enraging myself by how naturally it’s assumed that Ern, the working-class hanger-on, is given tea by the cook in the kitchen rather than eat with the other children upstairs...

I often think that women prefer male characters written by women, because they are idealised. Peter Wimsey is certainly a case in point.

As much as I love Sayers, my heart belongs to Margery Allingham, she manages to suggest a vast pit of uncertainty underlying the world, which makes her novels very unsettling. Tiger in the Smoke is a cracking thriller, but Dancers in Mourning might be a better indication of her style.

I’m not a Christie fan, but I love Ngaio Marsh and Josephine Tey. I also enthusiastically endorse Sarah Caudwell, such a clever and witty writer.

Georgette Heyer wrote a series of detective novels. They are formulaic, but very entertaining. I enjoy their evocation of a lifestyle which has completely disappeared. Period pieces, but I like them better than Agatha Christie.

Later, but not contemporary, Gladys Mitchell has a nice sardonic tone and something of the flavour of the earlier Queens of Crime. She’s not much read now I don’t think, which is a shame.

Ruth Dudley Edwards writes a good, old-fashioned and frequently very funny crime novel. She’s an Irish writer.

Emma Lathen’s John Putnam Thatcher books are gently written, old-style crime, with an engaging protagonist. They’re very soothing books.

I’d also recommend Gillian Linscott’s Nell Bray suffragette mysteries. And last, but not least, Laurie King’s Sherlock Holmes and Mary Russell novels. Peter Wimsey actually appears as a character in one of them - it might be A Monstrous Regiment of Women.

I think the thing I enjoy about all these writers is a certain elegance and intelligence of language, but also a willingness to take their time with a plot. I get annoyed with writers who are so suspicious of their readers, that they aren’t willing to let a book take its time. I enjoy a digression or two, whether it is a conversation about academic ethics or a description of a room or rare poison.

And just one more recommendation: for a podcast I’ve just discovered, Carolyn Crampton’s Shedunnit, which is a well-researched and mellifluous look at the golden age of female crime writers. I noticed that she has an episode on Gladys Mitchell - so I’m off to download that.

I often think that women prefer male characters written by women, because they are idealised. Peter Wimsey is certainly a case in point.

I actually think this is a weakness in some writers of either sex, often when they write a character who appears in a series of books, and they seem to lose perspective on the charms of someone they do clearly intend the reader to feel strongly about -- most of the examples I can think of offhand are women writing men, but that's because I read far more books by female writers.

I'm thinking of DLS's Peter Wimsey (a brilliant detective, a gifted and influential diplomat, a linguist, a scholar, a brilliant rider, fighter and dancer, fabulous in bed etc etc), Kate Atkinson's Jackson Brodie, PD James's Adam Dalgleish.

@DancelikeEmmaGoldman I love Heyer's detective novels! I had forgetten about them completely. I tried a couple of the historical ones but they didn't grab me whereas some of the detective ones have me laughing out load.

@DancelikeEmmaGoldman It’s interesting that you mention Gladys Mitchell. I enjoyed her books when I first read them (aged 12-15ish, a long time ago!) but when I tried to reread one recently I found it rather silly. Perhaps I just picked the wrong one- she wrote loads. Dame Beatrice Lestrange was clearly gay, as I believe was Mitchell herself.

I've also turned to DLS during lockdown, but have found the writing on the page a bit difficult to concentrate on, and also don't have as much time to sit and read, whereas I can listen whilst cooking, getting ready etc. So I've been listening to the BBC radio dramatisations available on Audible (Ian Carmichael as Wimsey). They're literally keeping me sane! Although I've had to slow them to 0.9 speed as they seem to be ridiculously fast-spoken otherwise...

Re Albert Campion : I love the mysterious hints about his incredibly aristocratic background. A minor royal ? A slightly disreputable, possibly illegitimate, son of some peer of the realm? We don’t ever find out, do we?

pollyhemlock are you by chance also a Diana Wynne Jones fan?

No, Mr Campions parentage is never explained, just hinted at. It would be so much less amusing if Margery Allingham had made it clear. Its that allusive quality, of things that might, or might not, be there, which I enjoy about her writing. She respects her readers and is willing to let them fill the gaps with their imaginations.

@DancelikeEmmaGoldman Thank you for that list, great stuff! I also like Gladys Mitchell and Emma Lathen. :)

MadamNoo: They are period pieces and a few of the breathtaking bits of casual racism and sexism unfortunately just turned me off.

Perdita: Surely any creative work denuded of the language and mores of its time would be worthless? And we can't expect every single previous culture to ascribe to our own best values.

I agree with both MadamNoo and Perdita! I was wondering how to express this, as it's a major issue for me too while reading.

I completely agree that these are creative works of their time. I don't expect the writers to share all of my values. The works are not the less readable, and not the less valuable and thought-provoking, for having such radically different and (to me) repugnant values.

At the same time, I find it wearing to be continually identifying the underlying racist or sexist premise, and maintaining a sense of what's wrong with this picture.

I don't feel I can relax completely and skip this exercise in mental footnoting, as it carries the risk (for me at least) that I might be unconsciously influenced to accept the norms being presented. It's not like these values are uncommon in the world today, and enjoyable films and books which present them as norms (even for perfectly good historical reasons) can reinforce them.

So I find the racism and sexism in period pieces both inevitable and tedious. They inhibit my enjoyment slightly, or rather more, depending how much real life shit I'm dealing with at the time!

I think everyone has their own limit as to how much of the nastier bits of past attitudes they can put up with. (Mine was clearly child abuse in that story with all the children, the abricots and that silly liberal house guest who didn't believe in hitting children. I forget the title. I didn't enjoy it.) However, the modern, sanitised, "in the style of" books (like Maisie Dobbs IMO or Laurie R King even though I'm very fond of her really) lack something genuine without all those out-dated attitudes. You don't get a proper sense of history, it's just cosplay.

The American writer Mary Roberts Rinehart has written many many (formulaic) mystery books ´(that are available for free online which is why I've read them). I read The After House and was surprised at how much I liked it. It's really tense and gripping. And also very racist and it did mar my reading enjoyment. At the same time it documents historical attitudes very accurately.

However, the modern, sanitised, "in the style of" books (like Maisie Dobbs IMO or Laurie R King even though I'm very fond of her really) lack something genuine without all those out-dated attitudes. You don't get a proper sense of history, it's just cosplay.

Agreed I haven't seen the recent Malory Towers TV adaptation, but from trailers and discussions on here, it featured girls from ethnic minorities, girls with visible disabilities etc without these being some key plot point whereas in the original MT books, the remotest deviance from able-bodied, white, middle-class 'jolly hockey sticks' girls was often brutally 'othered'.

And in DLS SPOILER ALERT!!!!

key plot elements wouldn't work without assumptions about social class, for instance that a college scout wouldn't be capable of quoting a classical text in the original in an anonymous note.

And some class issues that look progressive at first sight like Lord Peter marrying a bohemian writer he rescued from the gallows turn out to be far less so, when it becomes very clear in Busman's Honeymoon that Harriet is established rural upper-middle class as the local doctor's daughter. DLS clearly thought the aristocracy needed an infusion of middle-class stock in marrying Harriet to Peter and Parker to Lady Mary.