God Is Not Great - Chris Hitchens

[monkeytrousers]

Okay this is a hot potato - but lets try to keep our heads as I really want to have a proper discussion on this if poss.

I'm very much looking forward to this , more than The God Delusion for some reason.

What follows are not my opinions but the premise behind the recent publication of numerous anti-religion books. These are said to be emerging now as demographically speaking Islam is the fastest growing religion and the birth rate amongst active Muslims outstrips other and non religious peoples, so democratically speaking, we could all be living in Islamic states within 30 years.

Nothing wrong with that, except the fact is that there is no Islamic state in the world that is not a fundamentalist Islamic state - so the argument goes anyway, yet I'm not sure about Turkey, but that is the only one I can think of.

Anyway, the fear of all these writers is that the separation of church and state will vanish as, in any Islamic state, Sharia law is, and can be, introduced.

I do not know if the majority of European Muslims would want Sharia law introduced however, on that I am ignorant and would like to know more. There are pros and cons, certainly for the males. They would be entitled to much more, by dint of being male, than they are at the moment, but the lack of a female workforce would mean economies would collapse, and so a choice must be made between technology or individual will to power; their ipods or the right to have more than one wife.

I am beginning to understand the arguments that assert they are ?cultural? and not racist, if you can see what I mean. Racists abuse many of these arguments and they should be argued with - but it does stand that while no race is better than another, some cultures are.

We live in a western culture that allows us a basic self-determination, we can eat what we want, drink what we want, women can go out when they want and much much more.

I'd like to hear some views on this as I'm trying to understand the whole implications of it.

Thanks for reading

female workforce would mean economies would collapse, and so a choice must be made between technology or individual will to power; their ipods or the right to have more than one wife.

Why?

Why does that choice have to be made? presumably with the increasing birthrate increasing so very much that this country may be an Islamic state in 30 years, then one presumes that as with all religeons Islam included that the men can have more than one wife if he so wishes and they can go out to work - maybe there would be a caveat? this is ok as long as there are a majority of homemakers - so 2 wives at home, 1 in the workplace.

It seems to me that you are thinking about this far too rationally, of course people in power will always change society to adapt to what is in their best interest.

I think we will have a capitalist Islam fusion where men are king and make the rules accordingly

And you would be happy with that?

Part of the reason I have no time for superstitions is their use to justify removing human rights from large percentages of the human race. I maintain that women's human rights (to auton omy, free expression, etc) are far more important than anyone's superstitious sensitivites. Thus, the man (it usually is a man) who is offended by a woman driving a car, having the vote or living alone because it contradicts his religion/culture, whatever. should always be told that it's tough fucking luck and he can go get over it.

no i wouldnt be happy with that, that wasn't the question as i saw it.

Are you asking me "how do we stop our almost certain slide into Islamic doom!"?

Our culture gives us licence to do that Madame, but under a fundametalist regime (of any religion, it just happens to be Islam at the moment) we would not have that licence. We would probably be flogged for telling a man to f'off.

I said I was trying to understand the implications Five.

I liked the premis, but i dont understand the question

There isn;t a question - except to give your views. Many people argued against The God Delusion as they thought it was fundamantalist in itself. But if this is a real threat to western culture and not just some athiests squaring for a useless academic fight, then we need to look at the evidence and work it out for ourselves. These books are trying to tell us something not entertain us, that's an anathema today for many, but it's crucial we do the brain work ourselves.

This is just an attempt to have a discussion around the issues; no solutions, just working out the argument.

MT this is why it is important to keep saying, in public and in private, that "religion" and "culture" do not justify abuse of other human beings. If someone claimed their religion/culture required them to enslave people of a particular race, or prohibit certain races from voting, moving around freely etc, then they would be overruled: the culture excuse shouldn't be permitted when it's a matter of depriving women of their rights.

We plainly cannot do anything to stop the mass exodus to Islam can we?

I agree Madamez, or of homosexuals or any other position frowned upon by religion.

Hitchens said fundamentalist religion is there for people who are afraid of the dark, afraid of dying and, paraxodically, sex. That isn't a good place for any culture to start.

MY opinion is that with any luck, people will begin to realise that proponents of radical Islam spew the same poison as the followers of Nazism. I suspect that mainsteam Muslims will reclaim their religion eventually from the errant fundamentalists.

As for us living under Sharia law in a few decades, I doubt it will happen. Man's innate freewill will rebel against a prescriptive, constraining, and domineering ethos that prevents us from following our path in our own way providing it falls within a flexible and adaptable social and moral framework. Remember the Reformation and the religious revival that swept Europe and led many to flee to the New World that became the USA? Can you imagine emancipated, free thinking, Western women cow towing to a male dominated, unforgiving, regime based on medieval dogma? Imagine a woman trying to get a divorce from an abusive husband? Even the females in Saudi Arabia and Iran are demanding more freedoms for self expression and self determination.

Muslim women in this country who support Sharia law are seriously deluded, imo. They themselves take advantage of Western practices such as being able to drive for example, something not afforded to those women in places like Saudi Arabia but most would not choose to live there.

As for Sharia law in places like Jamaica, never. They like their rum too much.

I'm currently reading "The Rights of Man" by Thomas Paine which was published in 1791. The British govt jailed him for, in their opinion, his inflammatory tirade against the corruption of the ruling classes. He vindicated and supported the American and French revolutions because they were the harbinger to self-determination, equality and democracy for the common man.

Sharia Law, as far as I can see, repudiates self determination and equality, especially for women.

I hope you are right Speedy. But can't a man practice his free will under radical Islam? That may be the attraction. It's the women and the minorities that can't.

I don't want to forget the god issue too - if God deems it, faith deems the faithful follow. That's one of the main problems with faith.

I hope these predictions aren't true, BTW. But right wingers (not fundamentalists like the BNP just Republican's, Tories, etc) are catastrophising and saying this is the legacy of multiculturalism that allows people from other cultures to enter another and refuse to assimilate.

In some books, they say all the Mullah?s in every Mosque harbour fundamentalist beliefs and that they - that's getting onto dodgy territory and of course is propaganda for racists.

Just to be devil's advocate; what if it were true? And the assimilation is actually happening in the opposite direction, aided by liberal policies?

When Theo Van Gogh was murdered in Denmark, the women he was with, who he had made a film with that made him a target for fundamentalists, Ayaan Hirsi Ali was actually deported rather than protected; some say so as not to enflame fundamentalist tempers even more ? but that is a fundamental wrong surely, to make such a consession? But it happened.

Bump for more contributions

The title God is not great is a direct reference to the Islamic cry "Allah Achbar" which means God is great - and is the last thing most victims of fundamentalist atrocity hear, from the children of Beslan to the people surrounding sucide bombers.

In Iraq however, these atrocities are commited aganst Muslims.

I'll be back after school... just addin to list then reading

Ok then I have been assimilated here....sounds like The Borg (is that their name?) from star trek!
I shall order that book...I'm interested, though likely to disagree!

before I post can I just snigger at

"What do customers ultimately buy after viewing this item?
92% buy the item featured on this page:
God Is Not Great: How Religion Poisons Everything by Christopher Hitchens $14.99
2% buy
Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows (Book 7) by J. K. Rowling $18.89"

Now...

People fight - that is my gut response to this. Sometimes they win, sometimes they don't, but they do fight.

I agree that the mainstream Muslims will fight to reclaim their religion.

Pagans fought the Christians - ok, they didn't exactly win but they didn't lose either as we can see by the assimilation of pagan festivals and beliefs in Christianity.

Nazis as has been mentioned - another battle, and this one was won.

We cannot guarantee an outcome - I can't say "ooh, it'll all be ok, the world won't go insane and start stoning women in the middle of London", but I can say that it won't happen easily and people won't accept it quietly.

We will fight, and with any decentcy in the world, we will win.

I don't care which religion is in the majority, I care about the way the country is run and it is that which I am speaking about. My religion is never in the majority so I'm used to it

Ok I've read most of the posts and will try to add my views (but I'm not the most elloquent of writers so forgive me if I ramble!)

speedymama wrote: MY opinion is that with any luck, people will begin to realise that proponents of radical Islam spew the same poison as the followers of Nazism. I suspect that mainsteam Muslims will reclaim their religion eventually from the errant fundamentalists.

Have to agree with speedymama, I do not think there is any chance of fundamentalist muslims taking over and making western states follow sharia law, mostly because no matter how good they are at breeding these fundamentalists are in teh minority.

I grew up in Saudi Arabia with parents who converted to islam and fundamentalists were in teh minority even there, even under sharia law. Yes women coundn't drive (and that poissed my mum off big time) but families were still matriarchal (sp?) the big mammas were in charge (usually the granny) so in my experience women were not oppressed. As for the not driving it meant fathers and brothers had to always be on hand to chouffer (sp?) them around (but anyone who could afford it had a driver anyway) so their mobility wasn't impeded anyway. As I said, fundamentalists like you get preaching in this country (usually Asia IMO) are in the minority.

I also don't think we need to worry about Sharia law taking over or muslims taking over due to high birth rates as this assumes that all the children born to muslims and their children after them etc. will also go on to practice fundamentalist islam and think Sharia law is the only way to go. But if they are brought up in the west they will take on western thinking and western cultures too...I guess what I'm saying is that these muslims will have more diluted Islamic thinking than their parents and hopefully will be able to think freely and question things for themselves and even if they still believe in Islam will practice the more peaceful respectful Islam that says live and let live, respect your neighbor and respect other people's beliefs etc. etc. or they will follow sufi Islam (like the moroccans and spanish) which is about spirituality (and what my parents were into).

By the way I am not a muslim, I'll definately be buying this book, and I think most 'organised' religion doesn't work because it boils down to men in power, and that always goes wrong, as when men are in power sooner or later they abuse that power.

FWIW all the female friends I had in Saudi Arabia grew up into intelligent thinking adults who now live all around the world and hold down successful careers and sometimes families too and the ones who are married are not oppressed by their husbands and most certainly don't have fundamentalists views...

So monkeytrousers, I don't think we need to worry about Sharia law being imposed on our western societies, it just wouldn't happen IMO!

(it's climbingrosie BTW)

Flamesparrow I sniggered at that too!

sorry my mum wasn't poissed off, she was pissed off!

andI agree it was wrong to deport Ayaan Hirsi Ali so as not to enflame the fundamentalists further, but I thought she went to America under witness protection, rather than being deported? That murder was attrocious and those kind of things make my blood doil to be honest, how religious fundamentalists (not just muslim ones) deny people freedom of speech and expression and cannot take any critisism of their beliefs Grrrrrrrr

Thanks