steve biddulph - misogynist bully?

[workstostaysane]

half way through 'raising babies' he seems to be a big fat bully to me.
anyone else??

yes, it probably depends on where we live. However, I was never aware of such debate when I was in Milan, where nurseries seem to be the preferred choice of childcare (mind you that in Italy getting part time jobs is very difficult).

Ruty - "I do think it is a bit facetious to say on MN that sharing personal experiences is irrelevant though." Your personal experiences are relevant to you. I questioned that they are relevant in this context.

Franca - I also noticed the same propaganda in the UK against working mothers and nurseries. Coming from a country where most mothers also work and children are cared for in nurseries, plus extended family, I take this research with a pinch of salt. I don't see adults damaged at country-wide levels because of working mums or nursery care. Also my DS is now 7 and I can stick two fingers up at any research because I have no fears regarding his future emotional wellbeing.

I had a look in one of SB's books in the library tonight. I was greatly amused that one of the research he quotes is an article in Reader's Digest quoting another article. Anyway, I won't spend any more time on this and I don't fancy the old WOHM vs SAHM reiteration of personal beliefs.

christ cristina you have no fears about his future emotional well-being and he is seven???

wow. we live in different parenting universes! i am viscerally envious of that. I cannot share your confidence. I know that I will be concerned about the future emotional well-being of my son until I see him in a secure loving relationship and fulfillling his potential for happiness in life as an adult.

God yes, agree with Sophable.

I am full of doubts and fears about the future (to say nothing of the present) emotional well-being of both my children.

Maybe we're neurotic, Soph?

I totally agree with ruty. A friend of mine had her dd in nursery from 6 mo - she had so many behaviour problems that when she had her ds she gave up work and became a SAHM. With patience her dd's problems were overcome but she is so angry that she believed the pro-nursery propaganda and really blames herself.

I also read an article by Rebecca Abrahms (sp?) about how soem Ofted inspectors needed debriefing after the distressing scenes they saw in nurseries. Come to that, I could have done with it after reading the article, some of what they described affected me so badly.

I was lucky in that my childcare was mostly family-based, although I had a CM for a while, which I have hazy but unhappy memories of. But however loving the people (mostly my grandmother) were who cared for me, there were times when I only wanted my mum, and their cuddles and love wasn't enough. My mum did her best to make the special things, but sometimes she couldn't (even as an adult I was gutted when she missed my confirmation b/c of a business committment), but it was more the everyday things that mattered. I love my mum deeply and am intensely proud of what she has acheived, but I decided years ago that if ever I had dcs I would do all I could to be a SAHM for as long as possible. Interestingly my cousin has made the same choice, and like me feels society places no value on us whatsoever.

undoubtedly caligula!!! seriously! (speaking for myself of course...)

Is anyone's emotional well-being ever set in stone? Surely we can get screwed up at any time.

Christina there is no way i think all children who are in full time nursery care will be 'damaged'. You have already told me i have generalized the issue in my own head. I actually think some children will cope better than others, but it is impossible to know which children will cope better until the damage is [or not] done. I really support mothers' right to work, I really do. I am not interested in a SAHM/WOHM slanging match. I think nurseries should be improved and mothers' work conditions should have greater flexibilities. I think my personal experiences are of relevance in this context, because whatever Biddulph says [and i am happy to agree his research may not be perfect] our decisions with our children usually come down to both personal experiences, personal choices and personal beliefs. So saying they are not relevant in this context as if we are conducting a sociological experiment is a bit pants.
Of course, good parenting has a huge role, regardless of nursery experience. My decision is probably also based on my childhood. Like nearlythree, i felt neglected by my mum emotionally, though she didn't mean to neglect me of course. She was just always bust doing something else. And i felt she didn't have time for me. So that colours my view of how i bring up my own child - totally subjectively.

and of course i'm a member of the neurotic brigade too.

No, no concerns at all that DS's future emotional wellbeing will be due to my working or his nursery attendance. Yes, it's good to be that confident about that bit.

Right. So you don't think you would be too busy, say, to miss he was being bullied? Or deeply unhappy for some other reason? I take my hat off to you for being a far superior mother than I could ever be.

Ruty - heh? It's not a sociological experiment. I've said your experience are relevant and valid for you and have coloured your choices. Same as my experiences my choices. However, I chose to limit what I said to my family, you chose to generalise to others. That's all. So, about those pants, on whose head are they really?

Nearlythree - what the hell are you talking about? The future or DS's past? DS hasn't been bullied so far. I don't know what the future holds but it won't be due to his past so far. Are you implying that because i was working I'd be too busy to pick up on his unhappinness? Is that me or all working mums? What do you mean?

i don't think i generalized Christina but i can't persuade you otherwise. I think you are taking all this a bit personally. I was just expressing my personal belief and experience. Didn't know that was irrelevant on this thread.

quite happy to wear pants on my head though.

Actually, I feel quite detached about the subject, Ruty. DS is now 7 and he is happy and healthy.

Fair enough Christina.

at the pants. We are good at variations on this topics as DS went through a phase of liking Captain Underpants.

Ok, before i bow out of this thread, because I really believe that nursery's standards should be raised in this country and that this matter should be greatly relevant for all the families, regardless of their choices to work full/part time, work at home, stay at home, whatever, I would like to say that it's oversimplistic to suggest that by working you could miss out on anything terrible, or wonderful that can happen to your children. my dad has always worked from 8am to 8pm, and I swear, he could pick up on any kind of problems we might have. now that's me making generalizations...

You said that your ds' future well-being won't be affected by your working. It could be, b/c my emotional well-being was affected by my mother working so I know from experience. It is possible to be too busy and too tired that you don't pick up on a child's unhappiness. My mum and I love each other dearly but I reached the stage where I dealt with things on my own b/c I had to. If you can really and honestly guarantee that you will never, ever miss something in your ds' life then that is amazing. Of course, as a mother of three it's equally possible that I will be too busy and miss something even though I am at home.

franca, my dad would need a problem to go marching past him with a brass band attached and even then I'm not sure he'd notice! And he was around a lot more than my mum!

I didn't say he shouldn't mention it. But personal experiences are exactly that - some children do really well in nurseries, others don't. Unfortunately it isn't within every parent's power to decide which their child is going to be and act accordingly.

my dh made the mistake when introducing 2.5 year old ds to boxer shorts of first putting them on his head. Now of course, where do you think ds insists on putting them? Definitely not under his trousers.

agree unquiet dad. But that is the problem - some children do well, some don't. If there is a way of wangling it so a child has one to one care up to the age of three, i feel it is best to try. For myself anyway.

nearlythree, I'm really sorry you felt neglected (is this the right word?) by your mum.
My mum worked until I was seven, when I was a teenager I so wished she went to work and stopped being on my case the whole time! .