Who thinks Tess of the D'Urbervilles was raped?

[KindDogsTail]

Who thinks Tess of the D'Urbervilles was raped?( In the book by Thomas Hardy 1892)

I started a thread in Feminism about this but I wondered if perhaps some book lovers might not have looked in Feminism recently. This book is so loved and so important.

I also posted in Radio but no one has answered.

Academics discussing this book in the programme In Our Time last Thursday
said, 'We can't know.'

I feel that one can indeed know.... yes, she was.
So do most people as far as I can see.

www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b006qykl/episodes/player
about 32:00 minutes in.

I suspect we are now talking at cross purposes

IWILL I think that was one of the aims. Alec was knowingly bad.

Angel Clare's very name tells you what part of society he belonged to (it means Clearly Angelic)... it is that echelon that Hardy was talking to.

We see it, but back then? Many would have thought he had a lucky escape and was, indeed, a righteous man.

Wasn't Hardy a bit of a git to his first wife, then when she died, he banged on about how totally regretful he was, so essentially doing the same to his second wife.

It colours how I view him tbh.

I think so. They were estranged for many years and he was not all that much use when she became ill.

He married a woman who was probably the same age as his first wife had been when they first married, then spent his time contemplating his horridness... thus estranging wife number 2

Yes, all that care and insight for Tess, yet none for either of his wives irl.

I think if we're looking for 19th century male novelists who acted like enlightened 21st century 'new men' we might have to look for some time......

But it is nice to read some who try

HG Wells gave it a whirl, occasionally!

And... to be fair, it is the discrepancy between his life and his writing that invites some comment.

I think for most authors there is a discrepancy between their actual/historical life and the lives of their invented characters.

Enid Blyton was a rubbish mother by all accounts. JK Rowling is not a wizard.

Fiction writers are free to make things up. In their ordinary lives though they are subject to all sorts of conditioning,, expectations, social pressures etc/

Huh?

I have been reading all the later posts about tess's rape. Perhaps and this is a big perhaps Hardy was playing devils advocate. I am sure many of Hardy's readers at the time must have asked themselves why didn't Tess fight Alec off when she realised something was amiss. Hardy chooses not to address this. He further plays Devils advocate by suggesting that Tess was in no hurry to leave Alec after her rape.

Not sure about his attitudes to women, but HG Wells was a terrible racist, wasn't he? In one of his books predicting the future (not fiction) he stated that in the future all races apart from white, ie 'brown, black, yellow' would 'have to go' as they were 'less fit' apparently and 'the world is a world, not a charitable institution'. I know these eugenics type of ideas were fashionable at the time, but come on, that's worse than Hitler! I know he was 'of his time' as everyone unavoidably is, but with his level of intelligence you would have thought he would have had the insight and empathy to see what nonsense that all was.

Never felt the same about him since finding that out, although I had previously enjoyed 'The Time Machine' etc.

And Tess was raped, yes, Hardy practically spells it out (as far as he could in those days). I don't see any ambiguity there.

I think it can be a mistake - though one encouraged by exam boards up to and including A-Levels - to think that a work of fiction has a single, fixed, 'correct' meaning.

In fact Tess may be a young person who has sexual feelings and sexual experience yet also be pure.

Alec may be a predatory and exploitative character, yet not without some redeeming characteristic.

Angel may be idealistic and well-intentioned person - and be capable of cruelty.

I'd say the power of the novel lies in the way Hardy can create complexity, contradiction, ambiguity...

Yes yes yes marianne. I do think this is a huge issue when studying literature.

MarianneSolong
I agree that is true that that would be a mistake, but good A level teachers would want all these ideas discussed in an essay, or over several essays in my experience.

Musky
the time must have asked themselves why didn't Tess fight Alec off when she realised something was amiss. Hardy chooses not to address this

I agree. I think that idea is common even now. In Germany the rape laws have not caught up with ours and no fight by the victim means a person will not be convicted of rape.(This came to light for us in the UK news after the Cologne rapes). Only recently, about a year ago, this debate (only violent stranger rape is real rape) also came up in the media with a prominent politician who came out with such views.

Hardy chooses not to address this
In my opinion, as Tess was asleep (according to the text) when Alec lent down on her her, when she realised what was happening it would already have been too late. So Hardy had addressed it by describing her exhaustion before it happened and then let us know she was asleep. He did say also that this act upon her was something that was the same as returning soldiers in the past had inflicted on peasant girls more violently. Meaning I believe that with or without violence it was the same thing.

So Hardy was very far ahead of his contemporaries and even of some people in our own times.

Thanks very much everyone here in this thread for your answers. I have to leave it now but it has been so interesting to hear what people think, and to have the related links and ideas people have suggested posted.

I am definitely going to read the book again, in various editions and articles and biographies etc!

Read this year's ago but thought she was.

Haven't rtft but no question in my mind Tess was raped. There's a scene when the villagers are discussing her baby and one says something like ' Some say there was more than persuasion used in the getting of it.'

Definitely remember it bring taught almost 20yrs ago as rape. Or we at least weren't discouraged from concluding that.

Ah Jeez, I can't believe this thread! I actually thought somebody might have written this thread to bait me.

I refuse to teach Tess anymore. I assumed that the main underpinning idea of the book was that she had been raped......but I taught this book, at A-Level, around 6 years ago, to group of about 20 girls. They were adamant that she had not been raped: 'Miss, she must have known what was going to happen. Why did she think she was going there?' Lots of shrugs.

It was probably one of my biggest teaching fails. I actually called in 'guest speakers' from amongst the teaching staff to come and give their views to the girls. Fundamentally, however, the kids remained in disagreement with me.

that's reallly shocking and depressing Curioushorse.
there was something I think on BBC 3 recently about consent, where they showed a similar situation in a contemporary setting- post party, girl is tired, boy gets into her bed and rapes her- they had legal exerts to advise, and the story was given i episodes and studio audience of young people discussed it as it progressed. It gave the message very clearly that sex without consent is rape.
If you could find that programme you might feel able to teach Tess again!