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The Genteel Reading Circle For Ladies

231 replies

EverySongbirdSays · 21/04/2016 14:36

In which like minds will discuss Jane Austen and other such 19th Century Classics sparked from an unhealthy interest in the sex life of one Mr Collins, parson to her ladyship Catherine De Bourgh of Rosings Park

First up : Sense And Sensibility

Bring your love of Dashwood, Brandon, Willoughby, Farrars, and Emma Thompson's weird crying noise here!!!

OP posts:
PrudetheObscure · 24/04/2016 14:17

I could do with a soothing Austen read! May I join in if I bring biscuits? Or perhaps some wholesome smooth gruel would be preferred?

JennyHolzersGhost · 24/04/2016 14:30

Poor Brandon Sad
Poor sexy Alan Rickman Sad

RemusLupinsBiggestGroupie · 24/04/2016 15:00

Totally disagree re Marianne being Lydia-ish or Mrs Bennet-ish. Unlike both of them, she is actually intelligent. Her 'crime' isn't stupidity, it's allowing herself to be utterly consumed by love for somebody who chooses money over her.

TheHiphopopotamus · 24/04/2016 15:44

Well, we'll have to agree to disagree on that one. You could call it love (and I know things were different back then) but I'd call it teenage infatuation. There are also a couple of instances where she behaved inappropriately for the time, which her mother shrugged off, in a similar way that Mrs B did with Lydia.

I also thought she was hideously rude and snobbish towards Mrs Jennings as well.

Allalonenow · 24/04/2016 15:48

I don't see much similarity between Marianne and Lydia, almost the first thing Marianne talks to Willoughby about are her favourite authors, Cowper, Scott and Pope IIRC, I doubt Lydia has a favourite author!

(What sort of biscuits have you got Prude? I'm in need of a biscuit ATM!)

JennyHolzersGhost · 24/04/2016 16:01

I'm not sure about Lydia but re Mrs B, I always thought part of the reason Brandon was A Good Thing was that he's a steadying influence on Marianne - so she might avoid ending up as a Mrs B type. Mrs B was rather a cautionary figure for girls who tended towards silliness. Marianne was bright but she was at least for a time very silly.
On a related note I don't think Mrs B was stupid. As discussed on the other thread, although she was a rather silly woman in a lot of ways she had valid concerns about her girls and their financial future and did more then their father did to try and sort that out (though admittedly not in the best of ways of course). And she herself must have made very good marriage given her brother is in trade and thus presumably her father was too. She married a gentleman, that's a big step up for her family.

RemusLupinsBiggestGroupie · 24/04/2016 16:10

He married her because she was pretty, not because of her brains.

RosieTheQueenOfCorona · 24/04/2016 16:10

Marianne has more book-learning than Lydia but she's equally lacking in common sense. Poor Lydia, brought up with no school, no governess and a mother who certainly wasn't a 'slave to their education'. Not many chances to appreciate Cowper, Scott, Pope there.

AcrossthePond55 · 24/04/2016 16:55

Marianne seems to me to be an example of 'you can be very smart and still be stupid'. She was (apparently) well read but took all the romanticism in her reading to heart as being 'the way love is', rather than dealing in the realities of relationships. She was in search of 'the one great love' in the romantic sense, rather than the practical sense. Lydia, on the other hand, was simply a flirt who lived for admiration and excitement. She wasn't looking for 'one great love' she just wanted to be an object of admiration and desire to every man who crossed her path. Both attitudes can be equally disastrous.

PerspicaciaTick · 24/04/2016 17:09

Has anyone else read "Letters to Alice on first reading Jane Austen" by Fay Weldon. It is one of my all time favourite books about reading.

JennyHolzersGhost · 24/04/2016 17:30

Re: 'smart but silly', there are some echoes of that in Catherine in Northanger Abbey too perhaps? All the stuff about expecting a Gothic mansion and so on. Romantic and imaginative and a bit prone to liking DRAMA.

RemusLupinsBiggestGroupie · 24/04/2016 17:46

I really enjoyed Letters to Alice.

SurelyYoureJokingMrFeynman · 24/04/2016 19:18

Dorothy L Sayers has the Dowager Duchess talk to Harriet about men who marry pretty but silly wives and then realise that's who they have to look at over breakfast 20 years later (as a contrast to Harriet, obviously).

I always think she has Mrs B in mind.

EverySongbirdSays · 24/04/2016 19:34

OMG Marianne completely IS Mrs Bennett 20 years later Shock

OP posts:
EverySongbirdSays · 24/04/2016 19:43

I have to finish a Dickens novel for my real life Book Club so I can't get on to S and S til tomorrow

OP posts:
lucysnowe · 25/04/2016 11:31

I remember one of my lecturers talking about book S&S and saying that the film was better Shock!

As usual as I get older I begin to sympathise with the mothers more. Elinor and Marianne seem VERY young. A bit hard on poor Mrs D with three young daughters to be relegated to a small cottage in the middle of nowhere, no wonder she has the odd hysteric.

I think the sisters' situation is nearest Austen's, isn't it? I think a bit later in her life money was short and they had to rely on a nice brother to keep them going.

Paperbacked · 25/04/2016 13:09

Money was always pretty short, but the Austen parents were hardworking and enterprising - in the early years, as well as Mr A's clergyman's stipend, they farmed and ran a small boarding school for boys in their house and produced pretty much everything they ate and drank themselves - so they probably didn't really take part in a cash economy a lot. (Mr A was gentry, Mrs A was from a family of minor aristocrats, the Leighs, which doesn't seem to have stopped her getting her hands dirty.)

Then Mr A decided to retire and they moved to lodgings in Bath with Cassandra and Jane, the two girls at home.

But after Mr A died suddenly five years later, Jane, Cassandra and her mother were left in a pretty insecure position, and spent the next few years essentially living in temporary rented lodgings, combining living with another spinster friend Martha Lloyd and with her naval brother Frank's wife while he was at sea, and doing long visits to family members, which sounds pretty grim. There are various stoical bits in her letters about waiting for it to be convenient for some other family member to come and pick them up and get them to a different household.

Then the Austen brother who'd inherited from rich cousins, Edward, offered them a cottage he owned in a village on the estate. Even then, when the eldest brother Henry's bank failed, meaning lots of the family lost money, Frank and Henry couldn't afford the contributions they'd been making to the upkeep of J, C and Mrs A, and J wasn't making that much money as a novelist, even from her most successful novels.

I think all that really informs JA's portrayal of women like Charlotte Lucas, or Mrs and Miss Bates (the widow and spinster daughter of the vicar, now poor and living in rooms over a shop), or Jane Fairfax, an orphan with no fortune who is about to become a governess when Frank Churchill marries her - or, at a rather grander level, the Dashwood women (who, admittedly, have also fallen further, socially).

She's very aware, not to much of 'marrying well', but the very narrow limits occupied by poor women who don't marry, or are widowed - total reliance on male family members' goodwill (and their good luck), drifting down the social scale, not having a home of their own etc.

It's one of the most interesting bits in Emma, that when Harriet Smith asks whether Emma will never marry and won't it be awful to be an old maid, Emma's response is completely in terms of economics and social importance. She says that being a poor old maid would be awful, but that with money no woman is ridiculous, and that she could never be of more importance to any man than she is to her father, so she doesn't need marriage!

I assume we're supposed to see that partly as a sign of her immaturity and self-satisfaction, but it's an interesting point of view if we think of her books as love stories. Marriage and money are always intertwined.

EverySongbirdSays · 26/04/2016 00:47

Such an interesting post Paperbacked I was thinking how much her life was like that of the Bates' before I reached that bit - how awful it makes me so thankful for the autonomy of women now.

Imagine scrimping by on your brothers charity, hoping that a wealthy cousin or friend might invite you to spend Summer or Christmas with them out of pity, then worse still having to go with last years clothes because your spending the money you can get from your brother on bread and soap, and candles and rags for that time of the month. Or a damn doctor if you need one.

Awful too being the brother and knowing that you have a house to run and a wife and kids but your poor Mum and siblings also depend on you completely.

The stress! The depression!

How odd that two terrible world wars were actually massively beneficial to women
and in hindsight how massively extraordinary both Queen Victoria and Elizabeth I were to hold office so successfully in a mans world even if it was unearned.

Thank God for the Suffragettes, the War and the Welfare State

OP posts:
BoatyMcBoat · 26/04/2016 10:29

Amen to that, Songbird.

Trills · 26/04/2016 14:51

I'm very much enjoying Elinor and Lucy Steele being very polite to each other while both knowing that they both dislike the other and that the other knows it.

Trills · 26/04/2016 15:25

"Elinor agreed to it all, for sure did not think he deserved the compliment of rational opposition"

Every time I read this I resolve to take this stance when faced with irrational people, and every time I am so faced I fail to emulate Elinor's composure.

maamalady · 27/04/2016 07:05

Ah, I love this thread and the original Mr Collins one :)

I'd like to reiterate hiphopopotamus' Dread Warning about Joanna Trollope's version of S&S. I was given it for Christmas and read the whole thing just in case it got better. I feel quite guilty for having given it to the charity shop.

There is no place for a "oh no we are three women without a man, whatever shall we do" storyline in modern times, they all just seemed hopelessly weak. And Marianne had asthma, which apparently meant she could do bugger all except float about being melodramatic Hmm Avoid it like the plague!

I won't be joining in much with the reading circle, as P&P is the only Austen I know well, and I don't have too much time to read at the minute, pesky new baby! I can't wait until you get on to Wuthering Heights, though, I love that book :)

maamalady · 27/04/2016 07:07

Oh, oh, and Trollope's attempt at inserting "yoofspeak" into S&S is one of the most cringeworthy things I've ever read.

TheHiphopopotamus · 27/04/2016 07:30

There is no place for a "oh no we are three women without a man, whatever shall we do" storyline in modern times, they all just seemed hopelessly weak

This was my problem with it too. I think she should have made one of the characters disabled who physically couldn't work. Probably the mother and Marianne her carer maybe? I'd have a lot more sympathy with that situation.

Trills · 27/04/2016 07:46

They are always THREE women without a man, aren't they? Nobody remembers Margaret. She barely exists. I am not really sure why she was written in. Does she at any point DO anything that is necessary to the plot? They seem to forget about her for much of it.