Experiences with Zoe

[MrsLeBon2]

I’m thinking about signing up to the Zoe app. I’m a ‘normal’ weight though at the top end but with a lot of bloating/flab and I’d like to find out more about how I react to food to I can try and minimize the menopause weight gain. It’s pretty pricy but wondering if it’s worth it?

I was disappointed by a recent instagram post of a podcast clip in which their guest claimed that exercising on an empty stomach was much better for you. When lots of women posted in the comments that this only applied to MEN, and studies on women had shown the opposite, they changed the instagram caption, but I found it astonishing that an organisation whose specific USP is personalised wellness advice could fall into the default male data trap and make claims that don't apply to 51% of the population. It's really undermined faith in their reliability, tbh.

Yes I did think as a millionaire MR zoe and all these other talking heads can afford high quality ingredients/ chefs/ etc. I do think Chris Van Tulleken is more normal person friendly here in that he acknowledges his priviledge and is so about not heaping shame on those doing the best they can. His beef really is with the industry and links with food committees etc which I really respect him for.

Gosh really!? I have noticed these guys are all men... but yes that really is shocking.

@OneMoreStepAlongTheRoadIGo I am not sure this is the right programme for weight loss - before I started I was on a macro controlled plan and this was working well for me - moving to Zoe liberated me from the tyranny of weighing and monitoring food but did result in a gain as the guidelines - "eat X freely, eat Y every now and then" do not given real guidelines to anyone with any sort of inability to control their food mindfully - I found it easy to gain weight as I ate a lot of nuts, seeds, LivLife bread but at same time it would be easy to lose weight by eating high scoring low calorie (and so low protein) foods - this is how Tim S seems to live - almost all plants in every meal. It was on recently that protein levels were given to us to achieve with the original 30g of fibre.

I have now restarted macro plan but I use Zoe to guide food choices - so I eat more fish and have dropped red meats, I eat a lot of lentils for protein and my veg intake is significantly higher that it was

I would say that the detailed reporting and monitoring the plan requires could make people more aware of what they are eating and so ensure less consumption especially around low scoring high UPF foods

My biggest issue with the diet is the "so what?" - Zoe states it is very difficult to change your fat response via diet, my glucose control was excellent and yet am told to restrict certains carbs like friends who would spike at the sight of a piece of white bread and given the same guidelines. There are no real tests to show any improvement from following the diet other than a subjective one around energy and the vague promise of a new biome test - but they have already changes our scores from first test based on "new evidence" so not sure how meaningful any comparison would be

Yes I was interested whether everyone was told to restrict carbs (is it another "low carb" diet really?) or if it was just those with isssues.

One video I saw said he had a response to porridge/ croissants in the morning so doesn't eat them but his wife has no response at all so can have croissants or porridge quite happily....

Is the diet more geared towards him or is it individualised.

Also "othorexia" is a real thing and part of me worries that the obsessive tracking rather than general principles might lead to taht.

I didn't see that post but listened to that podcast last night (whilst walking in thunder, lightening and rain so maybe not the best frame of mind, lol) and to be fair they did make it clear the tests were done with male volunteers and needed to be repeated so sounds like the Insta post was a weak one but also begs a question about the research they are highlighting as helpful/worthy of our interest. As a woman who can't climb to the top of hill I live on first thing in the morning if I haven't eaten, never mind complete a workout, the podcast left me with more questions than answers, which breaks a golden rule IMHO.

i wonder if that means the fasting he advocates 10/14 window etc is more suited to men...

I’m a month in now and finding it a challenge but v rewarding too. I am quite overweight (4 stone overweight) and have already lost 10 lbs in my first month. I’m not only doing this for weight loss reasons but also health reasons and I am thrilled to be losing weight and feeling much better

Before starting Zoe I was on a constant carb cycle with sugar spikes and dips all day long . I always struggled to take sugar and refined carbs out of the equation but somehow with Zoe it has been doable. I think my mind was concentrated by doing the tests ( quite unpleasant) and the sign up fee.

Personally I don’t care if it is a money making enterprise and Tim Spector is advertising it everywhere. I have paid money to WW and the like over the years .
It’s easy to say you could do it yourself without Zoe but I’m not sure I would have found it as easy.

In real life I don’t tell people I’m doing this - not because I’m ashamed - I’m simply not interested in negative carping from people who haven’t even tried it.

PS : it is a lot of work in meal prep and organising ingredients

I think you are spot on. Doing ZOE will leave you better educated (or having swallowed a lot of propoganda along with your upf cookies) but I suspect it will not lead to weight loss for many.

It seems my blood sugar is always in the green zone range and my spikes are nothing to write home about.

'so what' sums it up.

and TS is very lean . . . up to him but is it really healthy? and is it healthy for post-meno women specifically? If mother nature lays down fat to help us produce oestrogen what happens if we lose that fat - will there be long term consequences? I can't see any info on this so if anyone has some, please share.

I do wonder if the money would be better spent on therapy to help me get my head round women's bodies changing and in any case why am I so fecking desperate to conform to an ideal I don't (in theory) agree with? Bluddy social conditioning.

My objection is not to the fact that is a commercial enterprise but to the oft repeated 'we just want to make everyone healthy' message which is, at best, only partly true.

The short podcasts are basically adverts (see above on use of research which is of limited use as it was based entirely on a small sample of men) but still they claim they're doing the listener a favour by not charging for them. In reality they're not well done and not worth paying for.

I don't think the type of oestrogen that is produced by fat tissue is good for health. It has been linked to cancer as well as other diseases
https://news.cancerresearchuk.org/2015/11/25/how-exactly-does-obesity-cause-cancer/

Professor Martin Wiseman, a leading expert on diet, weight and cancer from the World Cancer Research Fund, is in no doubt that oestrogen made by fat cells is a leading culprit in postmenopausal breast and womb cancer.
“The evidence that oestrogen plays a central role in some cancers is black and white. Oestrogen makes certain cells – like breast and womb cells – divide, so too much oestrogen can encourage cells to keep dividing when they shouldn’t be. And uncontrolled cell division is fundamentally what cancer is.
“Large studies of women have shown a direct relationship between obesity, high oestrogen levels and breast and womb cancers”, he explains, “and understanding this relationship has been critical in developing effective treatments – like tamoxifen and aromatase inhibitors – that work by cutting off oestrogen.

Thanks. That is sobering. I am not a scientist but when does 'obesity' kick in, how much is 'too much' and if you are not obese, just a bit thicker round the middle and still within a 'healthy' BMI* range, does it follow that less fat woudl still be a good thing?

*I appreciate that BMI is not straightforward either!

Madame that's great to hear. I am currently trying to come off a drug I know is bad for gut biome so wanted to wait until I was off that before starting.

I've been reading some of the key things/ watching zoe videos. In my head I was thinking I'd see what I can change over the next few months and then maybe give zoe a go, from a better starting point. I've introduced Kefir/kombucha/kimchi and I'm trying to cut down the UPF. I havent stopped rice/porridge which he doesnt seem keen on though?

What have you changed? I really do need to lose a lot of weight, but overall I want the health benefits. I'm morbidly obese and the "morbid" bit of that has terrified me. So yes I do want to be slimmer (i'd settle for overweight/obese at this stage) but I really want to lower my risk of everything currently. And become more mobile.

Are the main things - cut down UPF/ increase fermented foods/ eat 30 plants a week?
It looks also like for environment reasons he wants less animal protein? Is it actually really a low carb diet too?

@OneMoreStepAlongTheRoadIGo I’ve cut out sugar - so all cakes, chocolate, crisps etc. Also most bread. Have a super healthy bread once or so a week. Eating Ryvita instead. The glucose monitor and personal experience has shown me that my usual sandwich lunch is not filling for me. I’ve managed to make porridge satisfying by adding nuts and seeds to it.

Basically I’m eating lots of nuts ( not large portions) and fruit. Natural Greek yoghurt with 1 tsp of honey is surprisingly nice ( never thought I’d write that!!!)
Taking all those refined carbs out of the equation just means you’re not as hungry

@Parrish both dh and I have signed up using your referral code. Thank you 😊

My code should anyone want to use it is

joinzoe.mention-me.com/m/ol/xf8hc-a77bb12331

@Pumpkintopf beat of luck to you both! The first 2 weeks are busy so be prepared! I’m glad you saved some money!

Thank you 😊

I've got a new blood sugar monitor and am repeating the cookie tests in order to repeat the blood test.
I've eaten the breakfast cookies and am getting a very different reaction on the monitor than I had first time round.

What is that about?
Could be sensor calibrating but I put it on last night and in theory it is ready after one hour so should be functioning by now, it's medical kit which people rely on so my assumption is it should be working.

last time I did cookies the reading spiked to 6.8 afterwards and then was 5.1, 5.7 and 5.1 over the next four hours.
Today it was 5.7 straight after eating and 3.8 after 45 mins. That reading is in the red - last time I wore it I was never in the red other than overnight before testing started after first applying the monitor.

I think it's less about the specific numbers for non diabetics, but more the size of the spikes same more importantly how they come down and the time. Variances could also be down to what point in your cycle. Had an exGF T1 diabetic who had a libre monitor full time, and her numbers were different depending on point of cycle.

I'm biased against it I associate it with lockdowns and next slide please style scientist lectures.

I'm about 1 month in now, and overall I like the programme, but it is frustrating.

The app isn't the greatest user experience, and it's way to get confused about what you're supposed to be doing or not in any given day. I wish it had a reminder in each day if the diary saying "this is what you're aiming for today".

The food logging is clunky, although it does seem to have a relatively good database for scanning. The search function is a bit hit and miss.

Now I have my results in, the most frustrating aspect is the scoring of recipes. It's quite clever that they source online recipes, but it often doesn't match a key ingredient. For example, in the desserts section there are a number of items listed with scores of 90+, but on inspection when you look at the Zoe matched section it's missed "sugar, white" which makes it obvious that this food would be really low scoring. So the whole database is littered with inaccuracies.

Overall with a bit of effort to filter out its failings, I feel that it's still pretty good. At least in theory. I like that it keeps you on the nutrient dense and balanced path. I'm looking forward to seeing if it makes a natural impact without feeling like I'm following a strict diet.

It is expensive though and I'd expect better considering the price point. It is very unique though, so there's not really much competition. Hopefully price point and quality will get better over time as more competition comes to market.

Do they retest you to see if your gut microbiome has improved after you’ve done it?

Yes they are just rolling this out (you have to pay for it).

I am finding it very frustrating. I re-did my blood test but the app was out of synch and the 'help' was entirely automated with no live chat available at the times I could use it 'we'll be back online in three hours' and then three hours later 'we are experiencing a higher than usual volume of calls' etc etc. Upshot is I had to just post my blood test without logging it in the app and hope for the best. I hope it works because there is no way I am eating another batch of those unpleasant cookies.

The support is entirely lacking in my experience. The app is clunky, I agree, and confusing. The food logging is miles behind 'my fitness pal' and doesn't seem to be able to cope with homemade meals - time and again I've just selected the nearest commercially available option to avoid having to log each ingredient. Also if you note food in the sugar monitor you then have to go to the Zoe app and log it all again - so you need to move between two apps all the time.

I'm also wondering if this whole blood sugar thing is a fad, along with fasting. Why, exactly, are highs and lows of blood sugar, when it's within the green zone, bad? I wore the previous monitor for two weeks and was in range 100% of the time. There were some ups and downs but you'd expect that and there was nothing alarming. I don't 'crash' or crave sugar - so what is the problem I'm trying to solve?

Zoe bangs on about being 'scientific' but other than the patronising quizzes which oblige you to say 'sounds interesting, tell me more' and 'lets go!' there isn't much there - nothing in depth at all. The podcast is cheap, cheerful (by which I mean it has low production values) and short, nothing serious there.

I appreciate there's a range of need out there and some users want to lose a significant amount of weight or experience low energy but I don't - so maybe I am trying to 'fix' something that isn't broken. I'm thicker round the middle but is that middle-aged, post-meno normal? I don't like it, but I also have no desire to pursue that lean-and-hungry look that sported by Spector. Each to their own, I'm not knocking it but I am wondering how exactly 'flatting ' my blood glucose graph will make me 'healthier'. Healthier, how, exactly?

There are cheaper ways to do this - there are plenty of recipe books out there to support blood sugar control. I was curious so I paid up and now I know. I'd advise caution before signing up - especially if it's a stretch financially.

I signed up last October for a year, so have just come to the end. I have mixed feelings about it. I'm not 100% convinced about the personalised testing.

When I wore the glucose monitor I didn't get big spikes or troughs with any of the tests, my lines were much steadier than that of my friend who did it at the same time, but my blood sugar response was deemed Bad (17) whilst hers was deemed Good (56). I had however reported in the submitted info that 9 months previously I'd had a HbA1c test just into the pre-diabetic range, which I had already reversed by losing 5kg and doing 10k steps a day over three months, and I now have an annually tested HbA1c which is comfortably in the healthy range. I also purchased a second glucose meter about 6 months in, which again told me I was not getting big spikes/troughs. So it's hard not to feel that this data was ignored and the reporting of a previous pre-diabetic reading just got me an automatic Bad score.

Similarly, I have genetic high cholesterol and have been on a low dose of statins for years. My cholesterol is tested every year, it's in the good range with a great ratio of good/bad, and my triglycerides are very low. Zoe deemed my fat response Poor (41). Could be correct - but would I have got the same assessment if I'd not self-reported and only provided the data from the blood test? Don't know.

My microbiome score was initially Good (53) which I was pleased about. However, all the microbiome scores have now been recalibrated using a larger dataset, and the identification of more microbes etc. My recalibrated score plummeted from a Good 53 to 39, into the Poor category. I did also get a recent (free) gut retest, which was presented as super positive because my score had increased from 39 to 42, still in the poor category. My gut-boosters list has been updated! I already eat everything on that list frequently. My gut suppressors list has been updated! There are only two things on there that I ever eat (infrequently). Sigh.

This really isn't a weight-loss tool for anyone who is actually fat rather than just a few kg over where they would like to be. This is mainly because the only way to get a decent score or to make the endless pulses palatable is to add olive oil or nuts and seeds to everything. Delicious, healthy, very calorie dense. In any case, in one of Tim Spector's recent podcasts he flatly stated that anyone who is actually obese needs surgery or ozempic/wegovy. It's clear he is a naturally lean person, who doesn't really compute that some people may overeat even if they are eating unprocessed healthy foods, because it wouldn't occur to him to do so.

I am one of those apparently irredeemable obese people. In 6 months of strict Zoe compliance alongside weights/resistance training I lost 4kg. Big whoop. In the six months since, when I stopped tracking on Zoe and instead have tracked on Nutracheck to keep an eye on protein and fibre in particular and calories in general I have lost 12kg, and have improved my muscle/fat ratios significantly as well.

Sorry, this turned into a bit of an essay! But hope it will be useful to someone. I do find the Zoe podcasts interesting enough when I'm doing my 10k steps everyday, but I won't miss the glitchy app or the guilt from the doomladen scores it gave me for any animal protein, anything approaching a carb even things like dark rye pumpernickel or more than a thimble of sherry once a year at Christmas...

It is really interesting to hear your experiences Fretfulagain and MsRinky. I didn't sign up for zoe becuase I think that they still do not know enough detail about the gut microbiome to provide a truly personal programme. Zoe at present is really a data collection exercise that you pay for to help them develop their commercial product.

It is overly simplistic, for example your blood glucose score seems to be based on a one off test of ingesting a muffin rather than a detailed assessment of your response to different foods which in real life varies hugely based on how much sleep you have had, how much exercise you do, how stressed you are and even where you are in your menstrual cycle.

I ended up buying a cgm myself for less than £40. This gives me a full month over which to monitor my glucose. I could then see what food spiked me and more importantly what mitigations worked in lowering it. For example I now know:
a) I need to be a lot more careful about eating starchy carbs in the week before my period
b) The only time I can eat any bread without a massive spike (Even sourdough) is if I do an intense workout after
c) Pairing carbs with protein does seem to lower spikes, pairing with fats keeps spikes higher for longer
d) The way I cook different foods has a huge impact on my blood sugar response to them

I don't think zoe captures any of these nuances and to me seems like a complete hassle with all the food logging with very little benefit.