Why am I not losing anything?

[TomAllenWife]

I have a stone to lose.
I'm 45 and am noticing that even one cheat meal a week means zero loss

I exercise 4 times per week. 2 body combat, 2 weights sessions, each burning about 300-400 cals.

A typical day looks like:
Fast until 11am
Protein yoghurt
Lunch usually tuna or egg salad
Handful of almonds (no more than 8)
Dinner is something like chilli with cauliflower rice, or fajitas but I'll have lettuce cups

I drink alcohol thurs - Sunday typically which I know isn't great but surely that can't be the only factor that is preventing me from shaping up

I'm seeing all these different ads on FB like V Shred and how women in their 40s shouldn't be doing hours of exercise etc etc but don't know if it's all scams

Can anyone please shed any light on what's going on for me

The fact that a bariatric surgeon wrote the book doesn't make it infallible. There are many books which present opposing views of the science. There is a lot of science that opposes this science. Otherwise the NHS wouldn't be advocating for exercise to lose weight.

I don't believe in the same science as the NHS because a lot of it is funded by the big food industry, but the fact is that 'science' can be made to show proof of almost anything, if you look at it right.

I sincerely doubt that anybody, though, has produced hard evidence that exercise has 0% impact on weight. If that's been done, I would love to see it. If you have it please post it, I'm fascinated.

I agree lots of books are simply "opinions" - this one isn't. It presents the science, explains it and gives the sources. It is written by a bariatric surgeon

Just because a surgeon wrote it doesn’t mean it’s gospel. You can back opinion up with science very easily by choosing the “right” science.

Atkins was a cardiologist after all. And tbh, there’s no reason a surgeon would know more about metabolism and weight loss than any other dr- their job is to physically stop people eating.

I’m a biochemist. I studied metabolism for a long time. Basic conclusion is it’s fucking complicated- i still don’t see how all this talk of insulin negates the gluconeogenic pathways. And when you say “increase insulin sensitivity” how does that work? One of insulin’s functions is to increase glucose uptake from the blood and store jt as fat, so increasing sensitivity will increase the body’s ability to store fat.

It always comes back to eat less, move around more. Exercise works for me as I have a very sedentary job, someone mentioned NEAT- mine is very low so without exercise my calorie needs are unsustainably low.

Oh and out of interest- I’m going to read up on Jenkinson’s work- but if he has all the answers re. Weight loss as you say, backed up by science, sure that would render his surgeries unneccesary?

The fact he is performing and recommending bariatric surgery for weight loss would suggest that all the “science” is still not that effective, or he’d just tell everyone to follow the book rather than recommending risky surgery?

@Reallyreallyborednow

Oh and out of interest- I’m going to read up on Jenkinson’s work- but if he has all the answers re. Weight loss as you say, backed up by science, sure that would render his surgeries unneccesary?

The fact he is performing and recommending bariatric surgery for weight loss would suggest that all the “science” is still not that effective, or he’d just tell everyone to follow the book rather than recommending risky surgery?

because he is well aware that weight loss can be completely impossible for some people as it depends on resetting the weight your body is trying to maintain, and nothing to do with diet and exercise

Just because a surgeon wrote it doesn’t mean it’s gospel. You can back opinion up with science very easily by choosing the “right” science

You can, but he hasn't done. I am a scientist myself and perfectly able to evaluate what I've been told.

@54321nought

Just because a surgeon wrote it doesn’t mean it’s gospel. You can back opinion up with science very easily by choosing the “right” science

You can, but he hasn't done. I am a scientist myself and perfectly able to evaluate what I've been told.

I could probably evaluate the science myself. However, I tend to eat pretty much the same diet all the time. When I combine this with exercise I maintain or lose weight. If I have a 'lazy week' (e.g. working from home, eating the same amount but barely moving) I physically put on weight which is clear on the scales and also on my body in terms of how my clothes fit.

There is a lot of science that opposes this science. Otherwise the NHS wouldn't be advocating for exercise to lose weight.

There is no science that opposes this science, there was some but a) it is decades, in some cases centuries old and has been disproved, and b) the most recent and most well established was funded by the sugar industry, who had a vested intrest in blaming fat for hear disease, etc.

AND- the NHS does not unequivically recommend exercise for weight loss. Having been obese, and having been through the NHS diabetes prevention programmes, it is far more contradictorily that that. Very few medically qualified practitioners have any knowledge or training at all about obesity and related metabolism, it simply does not feature in the training. And some do just repeat the old stuff without knowing what it is about.

But actually, on the whole, the NHS recommends exercise for health, rather than specifically for weight loss

I could probably evaluate the science myself. However, I tend to eat pretty much the same diet all the time. When I combine this with exercise I maintain or lose weight. If I have a 'lazy week' (e.g. working from home, eating the same amount but barely moving) I physically put on weight which is clear on the scales and also on my body in terms of how my clothes fit.

sorry, but you are not showing any skill in evaluation here, in fact, quite the opposite

Basic conclusion is it’s fucking complicated- i still don’t see how all this talk of insulin negates the gluconeogenic pathways. And when you say “increase insulin sensitivity” how does that work

Is it because you're looking at it from the point of view of a healthy body, rather than a body whose insulin sensitivity has been shot by years of abuse? Increasing 'sensitivity' back to normal levels is the first step to getting it under control, isn't it?

@54321nought

Again, can you post a link to the evidence that proves that exercise and weight loss are not directly linked? As a scientist, I'm sure you understand the need for scientific proof rather than a book from Waterstones. There must be something in the back of the book in the references that will evidence the claim this guy is making, surely? Otherwise, why would you believe him, scientifically, over all the other scientists you've mentioned throughout history who have proven the opposite?

You seem to like talking about this mystery science but won't actually show it to us. It's a bit suss. One link would do it.

I am sorry haven’t read the full thread.

• two things jump out at me and they are linked to your body’s ability to use fat stores for energy 1. Hormones 2. Alcohol

Alcohol literally turns off your bodies ability to lose fat. It gives your body simple sugar that it will always use ‘first’ for energy and so when you drink you are sabotaging yourself. What you want is your body to be using your fat stores.

For all those who can’t believe exercise and weight loss aren’t linked - the issue is cortisol and the stress response that happens in a body. If your cortisol is spiked you can’t lose weight.

What to do: eat protein heavy meals.
Small meals more frequently. Do not skip meals
Remove processed food and eat whole foods
Switch to full fat Greek yogurt and cottage cheese
No alcohol
Have a rest day between days when you exercise
Drink 2 - 3 litres of water
You want your body to become a fat burner and not a sugar burner.

Is it because you're looking at it from the point of view of a healthy body, rather than a body whose insulin sensitivity has been shot by years of abuse? Increasing 'sensitivity' back to normal levels is the first step to getting it under control, isn't it?

If you are “insulin resistant” then you can’t effectively move glucose from your blood into cells for storage.

I don’t see how that fits in with the theory that too much insulin = increased weight gain. If you’re insulin resistant then how is excess glucose moved into fat storage?

Not my area so happy to be proved wrong but all this talk of insulin spikes and whatnot doesn’t make sense to me.

At this age weight loss is a bit more challenging than when younger. Personally when younger I did well on a low fat, proportionately higher card diet. Now I struggle with simple carbs and put weight on at the sniff of a slice of toast or pasta. I do better on a high protein/nutritionally dense diet.

However I had to monitor my food intake in great detail for some time to work out my resting calorie consumption rate.

Basically I need around 1500 calories a day to stay the same weight. In order to lose weight I have to drop below 1200 calories a day but avoid carbs after breakfast. I eat a standard portion of porridge at breakfast (half water, half soya milk) and don't have any other carbs a part from those in vegetables (not potatoes).

Doing this I lose about 1Ib - 2 Ib a week.

I have a fairly inactive lifestyle which impacts on the amount of muscle I carry and therefore my baseline calorie level. If you want to eat more then you need more muscle building exercise, not cardio.

Be aware as you lose weight you can get weird hormone surges as your excess hormones are fat soluble and are released when you lose weight. For some people it impacts on periods and mood.

The first 5 days cutting carbs are uncomfortable, headaches, hunger pains etc. it takes that long to ween the body over to running on fat instead of carbs. Once you've done that you don't feel hunger as much.

I lost 3 1/2 stone this way and got back into health BMI (from obese). I kept it off for 3 years but I put on a stone and a half during lock down (stress eating). I'm 8 1/2 Ib down in a month and making good progress.

[quote JustJustWhy]**@54321nought

I appreciate that you are explaining the science but I'll happily continue to stay slim my own way.

After 40+ years of understanding how my own body works I can 100% guarantee that exercise has a fundamental effect on my weight loss. Maybe there's a science behind it that has not yet been discovered.[/quote]
You've actually hit on one of themes in the book which @54321nought mentions - that what works for one person will not necessarily work for another, and the author gives the reasons why. If you've found a way that works for you, that is great, but what Jenkinson highlights is that for many people it's more complex than "move more, eat less".

I can see people have asked @54321nought to cite the studies which Jenkinson relies on but he's referencing studies constantly throughout the book so respectfully, I'd say if you want to read the studies yourself, find a way of accessing the book as they're continually referenced but he doesn't just cite the study, he explains what the context is and what the limitations are.

FWIW he does advocate exercise, but suggests its impact on weight loss (purely as calories in calories burned) is not what you'd assume.

Anyway, the thread has probably lost its relevance since it seems the OP drinks 3,000 calories of alcohol a week - exercise or lack of is clearly not the issue in this case!

@Reallyreallyborednow

If you are “insulin resistant” then you can’t effectively move glucose from your blood into cells for storage

Does it work the other way too? Is it more to do with fat finding its way back out than it is to do with storage? Increasing the mobility of the fat both ways (for storage or for energy supply) would allow the fat to be used up rather than persistently and stubbornly stored, so if you're burning more than you eat, that would help?

I'm not an expert either and it's nice to have a metabolism expert on the thread to ask!

Does it work the other way too? Is it more to do with fat finding its way back out than it is to do with storage? Increasing the mobility of the fat both ways (for storage or for energy supply) would allow the fat to be used up rather than persistently and stubbornly stored, so if you're burning more than you eat, that would help?

No. Glucagon is responsible for mobilising fat stores and moving them into a usable energy form.

It’s kind of like insulin’s opposite. Together they are finely balanced to keep blood sugar stable- ear a meal, insulin kicks in to move glucose from the blood for use, and any excess into fat. Between meals glucagon acts to move glucose into the blood stream so muscles and brain always have a constant energy supply.

Which is why I’m always interested when people start talking about insulin but never glucagon or gluconegenesis. They are a finely balanced partnership.

If people look up MAF training they might find it informative on the whole subject. MAF stands for maximum aerobic function and it involves training at a low intensity level whereby the body can utilise fat for fuel and not become exhausted as easily. Slow running, for example, can be done at a MAF level. It was discovered by DR Maffetone and lots of runners utilise this phenomenon to improve their running.

MAF training has been shown to improve fat adaptation.

@Reallyreallyborednow

Ah! I remember now.

Glucagon/insulin bit is at 36mins, what d'you think?

Sorry to be grilling you!

@WheresMyTweezers

but what Jenkinson highlights is that for many people it's more complex than "move more, eat less

Yes, that's what I imagined it to be. That's very different from what 54321 was saying, which was that the author has proof that exercise has no impact on weight loss. This is what I would expect:

FWIW he does advocate exercise, but suggests its impact on weight loss (purely as calories in calories burned) is not what you'd assume

drchatterjee.com/the-truth-about-calories-with-dr-herman-pontzer/

This podcast explains similar to what I think 54321nought is saying. Though he says that increasing exercise will generally lead to some weight loss in the short term, our bodies will soon adjust to reduce calorie expenditure elsewhere.
He studied the Hadza tribe in Tanzania who are far more physically active than the average westerner, but eat about the same amount of calories

@54321nought

I could probably evaluate the science myself. However, I tend to eat pretty much the same diet all the time. When I combine this with exercise I maintain or lose weight. If I have a 'lazy week' (e.g. working from home, eating the same amount but barely moving) I physically put on weight which is clear on the scales and also on my body in terms of how my clothes fit.

sorry, but you are not showing any skill in evaluation here, in fact, quite the opposite

That makes no sense at all!

Walk walk walk..fast and you will shed the weight. I am slim anyway but like being super slim for holidays. I tried altering my diet but I just get hungry and can't stick to it so I started walking a lot more. 50 mins and lunch and same again in the evening. Still drinking and I am the thinnest I have been in a long time. I walk v fast though
I got the idea from my friend who got a dog and has lost so so much weight as she has to walk about 10K a day just to wear him out. She said she is eating the same as usual and was always much bigger than me but now thinner

@miffmufferedmoof

drchatterjee.com/the-truth-about-calories-with-dr-herman-pontzer/

This podcast explains similar to what I think 54321nought is saying. Though he says that increasing exercise will generally lead to some weight loss in the short term, our bodies will soon adjust to reduce calorie expenditure elsewhere.
He studied the Hadza tribe in Tanzania who are far more physically active than the average westerner, but eat about the same amount of calories

They don't eat any processed food, so they're probably not a relevant study for most of us, although a good study in how a body can work.

The thing is some people are naturally less well 'fat adapted than others'. So their bodies will prioritise burning glycogen over fat. However, the good new is that training such as MAF targets fat burning ability. Once the body is more used to burning fat it does so more readily. There has been studies done which have shown its effectiveness.