Ketogenic Diet and Intermittent Fasting (IF)

[odefaux]

Hi all,

I have about 2 stone to lose and have tried everything. Need a lifestyle change and have been reading a lot of good things about Keto and IF.

Does anyone have any experience they can share?

Olivia

Both of these kinds of diets are very popular. I've done them both!

I've experimented alot with IF, and was even an enthusiastic spokesman at one point, as I did lose weight with it and it enabled me to "indulge" at times.

However, thought there are a couple of good things about it (you can learn that mild hunger is not such a bad thing), I think it has some dangerous aspects. I ended up a bit messed up about food and it encouraged the whole binge/fast cycle that long-term "dieters" get caught up in. My body fought against it and wanted to eat roughly the same most days and I ended up feeling very physically confused.
So, I am actually, quite against it now.

Keto also is very popular, along with its sister "Paleo". It restricts carbohydrates severely. Lots of people swear by it. Its true too many carbs in form of doughnuts, biscuits, cakes, sweets etc are going to make you chubby. But there are plenty of good carbs I would say - potatoes, vegetables, rice etc. that should not be so severely restricted. Carbs are good for us, within reason, I believe, if eaten in a balanced way. Read Matt Stone online for his well-thought out objections to Keto/Paleo/low carb diets. Also, most people can't keep up the high protein or high fat diets for long - they return carbohydrates to their diets eventually and put all the weight back on. What a waste of time!

It may be boring but true. A balanced, healthy, enjoyable diet. Reasonable portions. Avoiding binges. Some exericise if possible. Food in its proper place. These are what keep us naturally slim-ish.

Thanks @Pblac. I guess I'm more scientifically minded than most - I am trying to get some facts about how the body works to drive my decisions about food.

I've just read some commentary about Matt Stone's experiment with Paleo and I think I understand why it has failed. Low-carb / keto seems fine for most people but as soon as you introduce high intensity exercise or large volumes of exercise it seems the muscles need depleted glycogen to be restored quickly and carbs are the only way to do that.

I've learned that the body creates its own carbs from protein and fat synthesis so - if you're not in the Matt Stone exercise category - you don't actually need carbs.

I've also learned about carb, protein and fat effects on hormones, especially insulin, but also ghrelin, leptin and glucagon and in the case of carbs, it's not pretty.

With respect to IF it sounds like it would be hard to do without a low carb / high fat diet: one should be hungry on a higher carb diet and that's harder to maintain.

So I think I'm going to go keto because it makes biological sense, then when I'm in ketosis I'll give IF a shot so it's easier.

Hi Olivia,

I have had quite a bit of experience with Keto diets in the past. They are extremely useful to lose weight quickly but I would not recommend for long term use.

If you can push through the first few days you will notice a huge difference, not only in the way you look but the way you will feel. From personal experience I felt a lot more alert and energetic and actually struggled for a little while when I re-introduced carbs.

One of the main reasons people fall on a keto diet is that they have too much protein. The idea of a Keto diet is to use fat as your source of energy but protein can actually be broken down and boost blood sugar. What you want to aim for is to have 60-75% of calories from fat, 15-30% of calories from protein and 5-10% of calories from carbs.

Let me know if you want more info and recipes to follow. There are plenty of deserts to help your sweet tooth but have very few carbs.

Chris

I agree to some extent Olivia. I am not a high-exerciser though, and I still think some of the negative effects impacted me. If you read the personal stories at the end of Matt Stone's book "12 Paleo Myths" you will find what went wrong, sometimes seriously wrong, for many different people, many of them non-exercisers. You can also find these on the net somewhere so you don't have to buy the book! Its really worth reading. I also think (and this is my own view of course) that some of these diets lead to different forms of orthorexia by-any-other-name. Finally, its worth bearing in mind that all "diets" have the "science" to back them up! But should all be taken with a pinch of salt. Good luck :)

60-75% of calories from fat some people argue this amount of fat is bad for the body, especially the liver, as well as being fairly unpalatable and unsustainable long-term... just a thought.

and interesting what you say about feeling good at first Chris, many of the low-carbers in Matt Stones book did feel great at first, and then terrible ...

Thanks @pblac and @chrisjames.

Chris, everything you wrote is consistent with my research though there are many stories of people staying on it or adapting to suit them. For example, I've read of athletes adding back carbs to restore glycogen more quickly and staying in ketosis.

@pblac. biochemically speaking it is true that fat is not good for you in the presence of a high carb diet. It makes the effect of carbs on your body worse.

But it's not the fat that's at fault. A high fat diet seems to be great for human health based on the biochemical theory and peer reviewed studies. Good video on saturated fat:

@pblac: we've been sold a lie by governments and industry since the 1970s. It's shameful ... have a look at this video ...

I just wanted to offer another caveat around 'scientific studies' etc, as I always "read the science" too (or at least used to assiduously).

Intermittent dieting has been shown to succeed in various studies - like almost any other diet it must be said! However, there are human aspects and consequences of diets that are not always included in the 'scientific' research. So, for example when I did IF, yes I was losing weight and sometimes I felt good. But I was also moody, irritable, hungry and actually turning into a bit of a basket-case around food, and what day I should be eating what (an up day or a down day or a medium day, and so forth?). And ultimately I couldn't sustain that way of eating and live a normal life. When I 'came off' the 'diet' I put the weight back on.

Weight loss chat rooms are full of angry exchanges about what works and what doesn't and I really believe its good to check every assertion with one's own experience and common sense. Even Matt Stone - I think he did a great thing when he pointed out some of the problems with low carb and Paleo 'cult' almost. However, I don't necessarily believe or agree with everything Matt Stone says, or the 'scientific' research he uses to back this up. I always find personal stories actually more revealing in a weird kind of way ...

@pblac: I see how you can be hungry, irritable etc on IF, of your body is not also in fat burning mode. I would never do IF on its own while burning glucose for fuel.

Remember IF is not a diet. It does not guide what one should eat but when and how often. Determining the right mix of foods is a diet and that dictates whether one is burning fat or glucose, the only two fuels the body can use. Personally, I choose fat because glucose doesn't make me feel good. I feel bloated, have hazy thinking and abhor the feeling of being hungry to make sure I don't get fat. It's a personal choice.

I was never hungry doing IF because I was also accessing body fat for fuel. So I have over 100,000 to pick from any time my body needed it.

In terms of the science, well the human body only works one way. We metabolise fat, protein and carbs only one way, even if there may be some variations depending on the individual: m vs f, age, genetics, sports, diseases. So personally I gain a lot of comfort knowing the biochemistry and adapting my lifestyle to make sure I can do my sports, have energy and get / stay lean without being hungry.

I agree with you on the various violent opinions ... A bit odd but then food seems to be an emotive subject

That was my experience of IF Olivia, both positive and negative, and I understood/understand the science of it very well. I hope however you choose to do yours it is a success.