Totally lost!!

[fifi08]

oh help!

I'm totally lost with milk and solid feeds..

DD is 21 weeks, 18LBS, exclusively breastfed till 4 months then i started offering formula for some feeds by day as she won't take milk feeds for hours during the day.. she had a growth spurt at the 4 month mark which meant she fed lots by night for a few days and never switched back!! she gets very easily distracted from breast or bottle feeding during the day and will not do more than a 3-4 min BF or bottlefeed..

if she refuses a breastfeed i express (as i'm terrified i'll loose my supply) and i offer it in the bottle to her and if she refuses that i'll refrigerate it! i started offering formula cause it broke my heart to heat up my precious breastmilk only to have her refuse it and have to pour it down the sink!! i have to offer at least 6oz at a time cause if i offer less in an effort not to waste my milk she won't restart the feed again by the time i offer the top up if she does decide to feed..

also i've started her on baby porridge.. so now she seems even less inclined to feed by day and "waits" for the porridge.. i've also been letting her gnaw her way around a ripe pear in the evenings.. yesterday for example she fed at 01:20, 3:45am, 5:30am, refused feed at 07:30(bm by breast), 09:30(bm in bottle), had porridge at 11am, drank 30ml breastmilk (in bottle) 13:30 refused formula and later breastmilk from bottle.. refused feed at 4:00.. refused breast then had 40mls breastmilk from bottle at 5pm then stopped suddenly and started crying!! i made up some more porridge with breastmilk which she ate like a wild animal, shrieking between spoonfuls!!! i used 120ml to make the porridge so my milk isn't going to waste but do i give her more "meals" by day and just keep going with breastfeeds by night? it's like she cluster feeds after midnight till 6 to get through the day like a "normal" baby would do in the late afternoons and early evenings to get through the night!??

i'm not pushed about getting her to sleep through the night or anything like that.. my ds didn't do that till 2yrs so my expectations are SO low! i just want to end the obsession with "will she won't she" feed all day long.. constant expressing and having such a fuss about feeding in general.. i'm so upset to be in such a muddle 2nd time around.. i feel like I'm totally out of control and making a complete mess of this..

she doesn't sleep more than 40 minutes by day so is often cranky and crochety and as the day goes by i find it difficult to distinguish between hunger and tiredness.. a baby whisperer i am not!

please please help!

Quick reply...

By breastfeeding, expressing and offering formula you are doing things the hardest way possible. If your DD refuses a BF she is not hungry. Your supply will be regulated to her needs by offering the breast regularly. Your supply will not disappear overnight. Night feeds are very important for regulating your supply (a large proportion of prolactin, the regulating hormone, is produced at night) so if she wakes at night, offer bf.

21 wks is very young to wean. 6 months is the recommendation. What signs did you see that she was ready for food? Milk should still be the main source of calories at that age.

At the risk of being outspoken, you sound pretty stressed. If it was me, I would abandon everything but breastfeeding. Expressing, esp. with an older child top look after as well.

And if it's any consolation, my DD2 is 20 weeks and also feeding all night instead of during the day. I think it's because there are so many distractions during the day and she's at that age where she's really interested in what my other two DC are doing.

It will get easier!

Finishing that sentence: Expressing, esp. with an older child top look after as well, is hard work.

hello lastyearsmodel!
thanks so much for your speedy reply.. do you mind if i ask you a few quick Qs about your routine by day..

does your LO sleep much by day?
do you still regularly offer the breast by day? if so how regularly?
Do you try to feed her upstairs/away from other children?
how many feeds would your dd have at night?
do you co-sleep?
do you do any expressing at all?
do you have any breast discomfort by day as you wait for her to feed?

sorry to bombard you with Qs!! you're spot on i am super stressed.. the feeding had become an obsession, DP thinks I'm mad to keep BFing as i can barely bring myself to leave the house as i'm worried i'll miss an expressing session.. dd will defo not feed in company, out and about, in bed by day, darkened room etc etc.. i had a lot of trouble breastfeeding my first and with dd too.. i have invested so much sweat and tears that i just can't give up now!!! i guess i'm putting myself in her position and thinking how can she go all day without food?!! last feed this am was at 5am and she's refused me twice since.. i'll try expressing just for comfort and re-regulating my supply as you suggested.. but she's a one side at a time feeder and before i began expressing side A would yield 40-60 and side B 20-45ml.. hardly satisfying?? can't seem to get A up to more than 80 and B to more than 60 even if i express every 3 hours.. thought if i could boost my supply she'd be more inclined to feed as she'd get more in the super quick (2-3 min) feeds she used to do.. oh golly I've totally messed the whole thing up haven't I?

i really really wanted to do baby led weaning with dd and to be honest i can't actually remember why i started the porridge..cause i imagined she must be so hungry.. i haven't progressed to anything else as i'm trying to hold out for BLW at 6 months.. if she was wishy washy about it i probably wouldn't still be giving it to her..she's just so eager to eat.. holding the spoon and sticking her hands in the bowl and sucking her fingers!!

ok.. today i will only express for comfort and offer a feed every 2 hours? 3 hours? when she seems cranky? everytime she wakes up?..

Hello again, sorry been out all afternoon.

Couple of immediate thoughts - amount you can express is not an accurate indicator of supply, so don't worry on that score.

The amount of breastmilk your DD needs to be satisfied will differ all the time - sometimes she'll want a snack or a quick drink and sometimes a 3 course bf meal.

What makes you think you need to increase your supply? Offer a boob whenever you see a feeding cue (are you confident you know her cues?) - regular bf regulates your supply. Is she having regular wet and dirty nappies? Is her weight gain OK?

I don't bf by the clock but everytime DD2 wakes I offer (and she's a rubbish day sleeeper, often only 45 mins x 4 or 5 naps). Then if she's been awake a while I might offer again before I put her down.

Nightfeeds vs daytime - total sympathy, cos I think this is what DD2 is doing. I can only say that by trying to feed your DD somewhere quiet you'e doing all you can. Gradually she will need less from you and so will wake less to feed and one day you'll forget how tired you were .

So, answers:
does your LO sleep much by day? yes and no, no real pattern. Random 2 hour sleeps but mostly short naps.
do you still regularly offer the breast by day? if so how regularly? Yes, as above.
Do you try to feed her upstairs/away from other children? I try but not v successful with 4yo and 2yo.
how many feeds would your dd have at night? at least 3
do you co-sleep? sort of. DD2 starts night in crib attached to bed then comes in with me after 1st waking.
do you do any expressing at all? No. I obssessed over it with DD1, did a bit with DS but he hated a bottle, haven't bothered with DD2.
do you have any breast discomfort by day as you wait for her to feed? only if she goes more than about 3-4 hrs.

Expressing is telling your body to make more milk so could lead to discomfort.

Weaning: you say you imagined she's hungry. Could it just be your imagination? Babies' behaviour changes as they grow, plus tiredness can make them cranky during evening feeds. But if she's getting enjoyment from bowls and spoons and sticky porridge, and you're happy with it, then no harm done. The most useful advice I got about weaning was food is fun before 1. Your milk has more calories than anything else you can feed her. Plus, bf is about so much more than food to your DD - love, snuggles, comfort, play.

Better go, DD2 is chewing the laptop. Take the path of least resistance and try not to worry - you're doing a great thing for your LOs.

Thank you so much lastyearsmodel!! you're right!!your LO and mine are basically doing exactly the same thing re sleeps (we do 35 to 40 mins per nap)and feeds! difference is you have complete confidence in what you're doing!! i so envy your zen!

dd's weight gain is fine, actually she's bordering on enormous! 98th percentile.. i'm not very good with feeding cues as she's been teething since 3 months and has had her hand and fingers permanently there since! bfing has always been less about closeness and fun and more about panic, pain and worry for me! DS1 had reflux so we spent 8 months in a cycle of feeding and vomiting! with my DD i fought so hard for the first 3 weeks to keep feeding as she had a terrible latch.. had to get lactation consultant to help in the end.. so i'm not a confident feeder.. got upset yesterday when, in my usual blind panic of trying to make her feed she heard the click of the nursing bra and saw what was coming and she got all fussy and upset that another assault was imminent!

if you had time to give me a brief list of your dd's feeding cues i'd be so grateful.. i took your advice today and only did 2 tiny expresses and she fed at 1pm, 3pm,(quick drinks) 5pm, and 7pm, the 5pm and 7pm were good ones as it was so dark!! i think i'll retreat on the food front.. should be easy as it's only been a few baby steps into it.. most likely it was just my imagination.. although she would try to hold and eat the teetha packets and cry when it was empty!!

i really really appreciate you taking the time to give me your advice.. i am basically in complete awe of anyone who has more than 2 children!! you're amazing!! thanks so much for helping me, everything you've said really has made a difference! xx

Aw, fifi, you are very sweet. I had so many problems with DD1's feeding and got so much bad advice, it makes me want to try and help others if I can. I wish I was zen, but with 3 DCs (be careful what you wish for) I just haven't got the headspace to worry about everything. I am nearly boss-eyed with tiredness, though, and dream about leaving the house without a child in tow. It'll happen...

DD1 was a very slow starter with bf - slow weight gain, thrush, mastitis - we had every problem. So when DS came along he was much easier and my confidence grew. Then DD2 has arrived and although she's very like DD1 (girls, I think - lots of emotion!) I know what I'm doing a bit more. And MN has helped me SO much - other posters have helped me relax about all sorts of parenting things. It's so easy to get stressed about being a mum, and guilt is a mother's lot, I think.

I'm so pleased things are improving for you. You clearly did the right thing in sorting the latch straight away. Babies change so quickly I often have to remember to take 1 feed at a time and not to worry about the big picture. And there's this kind of invisible pressure - what should I be doing? What are other people doing? Forget them and concentrate on you and your babies.

DD2 feeding cues - getting clearer as she gets older. She'll turn towards me and open her mouth sometimes, she used to froth at the mouth but not so much any more, and sometimes she does a little coughing cry. And sometimes I just offer it cos she hasn't fed in a while and I want her to feed more in the day and go longer at night .

So, you have an instinct - trust it! DD1 awake again.