A few questions - free range

[Fangsalot89]

I just have a few questions and wondered about people’s thoughts to it:

• is it ever right/ok to milk a cow?
• do cows produce more milk than a calf requires and if so, what happens if they aren’t milked?
• people’s thoughts on Ahimsa milk/cheese?

The above questions don’t relate to the industrial farming. I’m talking more about the small scale farms

Thanks x

I am not vegan. However, restricting your consumption of milk and milk-products to only "ethically produced" versions like this wouldn't be any kind of veganism. It would be just a particularly strict kind of vegetarianism.

Vegans generally believe that all kinds of animal-produced food and non-food substances are unethical and it doesn't matter if the specific animal is being well-treated or doesn't particularly suffer from producing the substance in question because consumption of such substances is inextricably part of supporting the whole idea of animals being used to benefit humans. In a vegan utopia there wouldn't be any farm animals whatsoever, no matter how well they were treated. Cows, sheep etc would exist only in the wild.

If a cow produces more milk than the calf needs that is a consequence of the cow having been selectively bred for overproduction. Consuming that excess milk would be supporting that breeding program.

As a non-vegan I can see the Ahimsa method of milk and cheese production is certainly more ethical than industrial methods. However you can't be a semi-vegan or "mostly-vegan-except-for"

The problem for vegans with this, however 'nicely' you want to do it is that you're still seeing the animal as a commodity.

We wouldn't ask these questions about ourselves would we?

Is it ever okay to milk a human?

Do humans produce more milk than a baby needs and if so what happens if they aren't milked?

The problem for vegans with this, however 'nicely' you want to do it is that you're still seeing the animal as a commodity. - this, pretty much, is how I feel.

I have used the phrase 'keeping animals for fun and profit!' to various people before when they have tried to explain to me why this/that/the other is 'fine' it may be fine for them, but it's not vegan!

I agree that it would indeed be very morally conscious vegetarianism. Not saying I might not go that way if I had the land/money/time (am currently vegan), but it's not a way of life you could adopt and still reasonably apply the label vegan.

Yes from a vegan point of view, this question would be equivalent to something like "Is it ok for me to keep slaves so long as I treat them really nicely and make sure they are always comfortably fed and clothed and housed?" To which the answer is clearly no because slavery is wrong no matter how gilded the cage is. Within veganism, nonhuman animals are accorded this respect too and there are no ways of using/exploiting animals or their by-products that are "ok". I am not vegan so this isn't my standpoint but I understand it as a coherent position to take. Veganism is more than just a dietary preference, it is a whole philosophical and ethical system and worldview.

Absolutely @KihoBebiluPute and even if a vegan did accept that no harm was being done etc you would still have the problem of how to obtain the cows in the first place. They would come from a breeder who would kill male calves, much like obtaining chickens.

I am vegan and had pet hens before going vegan but I know I cannot have any more because of how the breeders operate killing the male chicks. Some vegans rescue hens but that too is a grey area as to whether you are still contributing to animal suffering in the bigger picture.

I think all vegans have to choose their own line in the sand but this one for most would cross it.