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Vegan

Join Mumsnet's vegan community and discuss everything related to the vegan diet.

If you are vegan for ethical reasons...

24 replies

LeighLeigh00 · 14/04/2018 20:09

Would you consider eating cheese from a small local farm if you could see the quality of life given to the cows was very high?

I am a full vegetarian and transitioning vegan. I've found it very easy to give up milk, yoghurt and eggs, but cheese is the one food type I still trip up on occasionally.

There are a number of very small private farms nearby who make their own cheese. They do not sell to supermarkets and do not produce cheese on a mass scale - more as a product to sell alongside jams, free range eggs, compost etc in their small farm shops. I have been thinking of visiting them (unannounced) and asking if they would talk to me about their cheese making processes and allow me to see where the cows graze and are housed.

If you could see that the cows spent most of their days freely grazing, were permitted to keep their young, were not sold for meat when no longer fertile and spent comparatively little time being milked, would this satisfy you from a welfare perspective?

I am fully prepared to struggle to meet all of these criteria. Particularly keeping their young (if male).

OP posts:
honeysucklejasmine · 14/04/2018 20:12

I'm not vegan, although I don't eat dairy or eggs. But, I thought that cows produce milk because of continued impregnation and then having the calf removed so we can collect the milk instead? Which I guess isn't fun in any way.

Happy to be corrected on the process.

LeighLeigh00 · 14/04/2018 20:14

@honeysycklejasmine yes that is how mass dairy farming works. This is why I included the criteria that calves stay with mum and mum is not over-milked leaving milk for the calf.

OP posts:
SuffolkBumkin · 14/04/2018 20:15

I think you made the perfect point in your last sentence. Unfortunately their male young will be slaughtered very young. I am vegan but I do think eating as little possible dairy as possible is better than nothing.

Ploppymoodypants · 14/04/2018 20:18

Hello, I am mostly vegan. I will eat milk and dairy from a ‘calf at foot’ dairy farm and also eggs from my own free range chickens (or a friends where I know they are well looked after). Will also eat lamb from a friend who rears them herself (with their mums) and can slaughter without them traveling. I am not against eating animal produce, just against the way it is farmed.

HipsterMasonJar · 14/04/2018 20:18

No, but i think any reduction in animal product consumption is good

DairyisClosed · 14/04/2018 20:19

I think it depends on your ethical viewpoint. If you think it is wrong to use animals for our benefit end of then of course not. On the other hand if you believe that animal products in themselves are not an ethical problem but rather the treatment of animals then that's a bit different. Obviously cows can be happy being used for milk (that is what they have been bred for and they could not lead a comfortable existence without human intervention). But you would have to consider what happens to their calves once they are old enough to be separated from their mother's, what happens to the cows when they are too old to produce milk and suck like.

PhoenixJasmine · 14/04/2018 20:25

Not really, no. The fact is that the cows have been selectively bred in the first place to massively over produce milk, they’re not natural creatures, they’re designed to be exploited. I’ve also never heard of anywhere operating as you describe - it doesn’t sound as if they’d be any profit in it. Even lovely small farm shops have to make a living.

If it’s the cheese craving you’re struggling with - I assume you’ve discovered the wonders of nutritional yeast Grin - I’ve been experimenting with home making nut cheeses, and surprising myself with how good results have been so far. Definitely have managed decent cream cheese and mozzarella both based on cashews, tapioca flour to get the mozzarella consistency, and an ok hard cheese using agar agar. There’s loads of recipe books out there and tonnes of info online. Even methods for Camembert/Brie style and blue cheeses.... depending on how technical you want to get!

HipsterMasonJar · 14/04/2018 22:36

Vegans believe that animals are not resources/commodities and are not here for humans to use - hence “here with us not for us”. We believe that what animals make isn’t ours to take, regardless of how well we believe we are treating them. So to take milk made for calves would not be vegan. And luckily there are so many fantastic dairy alternatives available now - eg oat milk is fantastic in tea

Sadsnake · 14/04/2018 22:40

No absolutely not...I loved catherderal city..but not touched it since I was vegan..Tesco do some lovely vegan cheeses ,I don't miss it at all

PhoenixJasmine · 14/04/2018 22:42

Wonder if it’s deliberate that the ad at the bottom of this thread is for black pudding? Literally advertising animal blood to eat.

tenbob · 14/04/2018 22:45

suffolk
I buy beef from a farm which rears male jersey calves which would otherwise be killed at birth

TenThousandSpoons · 14/04/2018 22:46

I think the advert is dependent on what you’ve been searching for - mine is for benefit makeup not black pudding Grin

PhoenixJasmine · 14/04/2018 23:04

Lol somethings up with the algorithm if it’s targeting black pudding ads at me then Grin

honeysucklejasmine · 15/04/2018 02:41

Yes, I see that you said that, but keeping their young or not, they are literally being bred so you can have milk.

I think pp is right that it wouldn't be financially viable.

Bitchywaitress · 15/04/2018 03:09

Here's my targeted ad Shock

If you are vegan for ethical reasons...
HopScotchy · 15/04/2018 21:56

I agree this is a non starter. It's not possible to make cheese commercially in a way that would meet vegan ethical concerns about welfare. What would they do with the male calves?

Bitchywaitress · 15/04/2018 23:45

Hate to day this but Rose Veal

Bitchywaitress · 15/04/2018 23:46

Sorry to Say this

ClaryFray · 16/04/2018 18:29

I'm vegetarian, slowly moving towards vegan but cheese is my bad point too. I love the stuff.

I, however will only have it when I'm out. I won't buy it in. Is there a vegan cheese substitute ?

kikisparks · 17/04/2018 06:43

Clary there are a number of vegan cheeses but they all taste different and you need to try a few to find one you like. Tesco’s Sainsbury’s and Asda sell some all made by the same company. Cashew nut cheese from health food shops is my favourite but vegusto is also very good. Violife is ok on pizza and pasta.

kikisparks · 17/04/2018 06:44

Oh and yes there’s no way to make dairy cheese without killing cows/ bulls and still make a profit.

smallmole · 17/04/2018 19:28

Sorry but no, I wouldn't. I'm wholeheartedly of the with-us-not-for-us belief so no matter how "happy" you said your cows were I'd still not buy the cheese. They're not making it for us - it's not for us to take it. That said, I think there might well be a market for it - I know quite a few people who would love the idea of 'ethical' cheese.

LP17 · 17/04/2018 19:39

I wouldn't, because they're still doing it for profit and I'm assuming they can't keep the cows for their whole natural lifespan once they are no longer fertile.

That said - baby steps. Cheese is incredibly addictive. I have been vegan for 3 years now & still sometimes look at things with real cheese on and think "that looks so tasty". However, I have grown to enjoy pizza, pasta etc with loads of different toppings (pesto, hummus, veggies, nuts etc) but sometimes just crave cheese and crackers. For that purpose, I LOVE tyne chease. It is so tasty. Not cheap, mind you. But very tasty.

ClaryFray · 18/04/2018 06:52

@kikisparks thanks. I'll give it a try.

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