Lifting Support Thread 3

[Proteinpud]

Continuing from @Work2live 's original thread, with the following intro post

"Thought I’d start this thread as a few people thought it’d be a good idea.

"It might be a nice place to support each other and talk about lifting in general, ask for tips and advice on workouts, how to get enough protein etc.

"All levels very much welcome, from complete newbies to those who’ve been weightlifting for years! 💪🏼"

This site lists them

plgymfinder.co.uk

Their criteria are having comp kit though, there will be other gyms that might be good and not on there, but it's a start.

Group PT people often do 121s also.

@redfacebigdisgrace my goals are similar I think and what has worked for me is having a range of different local stuff. That really matters.

Shared park PT once a week, quite informal, skills and some conditioning (calisthenics). He trains with us, it is relatively cheap and we go through different phases of what we work on. I love it. We do skip weeks if weather bad or injuries/illness.
Local high street gym membership - cheap, small strength-focussed gym that does have some specialist calisthenics classes. I've cut back a bit on these to give me more time to train solo or with my gym partner (who I share PT with). I do mixture of weights and cali here and like having the variety.
Local boxing club membership (not atm cos elbow) for cardio, conditioning, HIIT and fun!
Running very slowly as and when, more atm because I can't box.

There are much better specialist calisthenics gyms with really good classes, but none local. And better general gyms with more space and eg proper Pilates, boxing or lifting classes but no cali rigs/classes. So I think it depends how much you want to specialise and/or travel.

@Proteinpud I agree about confidence. He doesn't always get it right but I trust him and feel safe trying new things with him.

Grip is an issue with the upside down leg raises but it is easy to come down quickly at least to feet on the ground - I then have a very undignified wriggle to get my head out from between my legs or that is what it feels like

Ooomph! Training going well. I've started doing the semi-vertical (sled?) leg press machine, really enjoying it and surprised by the numbers if I have understood the base weight sign correctly!

My elbow means I can't do chin ups but have been rebuilding pull ups and got 8 on my first set last night, 7 with chin well above the bar and feeling strong. My max is 9 some time ago but that was with neutral grip and dodgy form, and drilling pull ups in a boring way! This time I've done a range of stuff that I have enjoyed so I am pleased. I still struggle with pulling into the bar at the top so going to work on that.

Ooo I like the leg press - I get to semi lie down while pushing heavy weights. It’s a good way to work on mobility at ankles and hips if you do it properly to maximum depth of knees to chest while pushing up the weight. I think I got up to a 1RM of 140kg which is 2 and a bit times what I can back squat.

Had a rubbish session yesterday, think the limited food/covid hangover is now affecting me. It's the last two weeks of my current programme, with a planned deadlift max effort next week, so really rubbish timing!

How is everyone else doing?

Ok scratch the above post, I got a squat PR today ! If anyone remembers, squats are my nemesis so it feels like a big deal to make any progress there!

I am going to try and start eating a bit more now too. Gradually, but I want to get stronger. I had been trying to get a bit leaner (though that ended up happening with being ill, not intentionally) but I think I've established doing so requires less than 1500 calories on average, and that's too low to be sustainable for me. So I'm going to switch to focus on performance and strength gains.

@everycowandagain how are you getting on, post your cut?

Great to hear about the PBs, and the focus on getting strong.

As ever I don't have much to tell really. I'm back to comp prep but it's still a way off. So I'm back to comp standard SBD plus variations. Lots of reps, no PBs will be happening till Sept. I was repping 100kg deads for 8 the other day, which I always find pretty cool as I remember first hitting 100kg for one, so I have to pinch myself a bit when I'm doing reps/sets in just a run of the mill training session.

@RayKray, that's it exactly about when something that seemed amazing for one becomes part of a set, it is such a cool thing.

@Proteinpud it sounds like a good plan to eat more. Covid can knock the stuffing out of you and so it may just be bad timing? As I've said before I only ever seem to lose weight when I stop strength training. I lost a couple kilo on a recent holiday (walking loads but eating loads too!) and will try to keep it off (feels like am back at my fighting weight now - even a couple of kg makes a difference to pull ups) but I just can't lift or enjoy life if I am under-fuelled and I'm strong, fit and healthy atm ......Yayyyy on you squats!!

@RayKray you might not have 'news' but I'm always interested to hear about your powerlifting - I find the long game fascinating. And repping 100kg is fantastic. I've twice lifted 95k for 1 rep and then bottled going for second! Also I annoyingly realised that I didn't have the space on the bar to try anything between 91-94 to ease into it. I know that sounds odd but it's the combination of weight plates I have and using a 6ft bar. I still do have a full size bar so I could make space to use it, but I'm a little scared it will feel different!

@MsMartini yeah it's bad timing, oddly enough I have been lifting throughout (had almost a week off when it was at it's worst) and strength wise I was ok. Cardio is shot, my heart rate spikes walking upstairs, but strength seemed unaffected. But it really affected my appetite hence the very low calories. I'm not actually that bothered about scale numbers, it was the usual how my clothes fit that I was noticing, I carry the excess around my stomach. I've lost 3kg and I'm hoping to gradually increase calories with the goal of increasing strength but ideally not putting on too much fluff on my waist. Quite happy if it goes on my quads/hamstrings/shoulders!

I haven't noticed a difference to my pull ups, but I did try a deadhang today and got one minute ten! Usually I'm happy with 45seconds! Think that must be the deadlift effect, and maybe a little bit re weight. And yeah the squats feels a bit of a breakthrough, I've increased enough that it feels like a definite strength increase rather than a fluke or just pushing myself a bit harder, if you know what I mean.

How is your elbow btw?

I agree @RayKray , I find your descriptions of how you train really interesting.

@Proteinpud yes I go partly by clothes too - I don't find the scales that helpful when I am training. That's great about the deadhang!

Elbow much better since I started with the reverse Tyler twists and I'm using a gripper while watching telly too (which may have helped with the pull up PB this week). I still can't do a chin-up as that hurts and occasionally feel it in daily life so haven't got back to boxing yet but am really enjoying bench, leg press, some other weights and machines and stuff that I don't have time for usually.....

Ah that's good. It's amazing how much difference rehab exercises can make. I remember having shoulder pain for a long time, going to physio who recommended a particular exercise with a resistance band, going back 30 days later pain free and she was blown away by the progress. In our conversation we worked out that it was likely because I'd done the prescribed exercise daily as per her instruction. Apparently that's not a thing most people do. Sometimes ASD traits are beneficial 😁

Have you found anything in the alternatives that you're going to keep? I started doing bodyweight Bulgarian split squats when feeling rough, because I've tried them with weight, hated them, and thought it was a good opportunity to try and get comfortable with the movement. Felt a lot better bodyweight and something I want to continue with - I won't claim to understand the mechanics, but everything I read points to single leg training being good for athletic performance/power, which I hope will have a crossover for capoeira.

Well if it's interesting I can add that at the moment I do normal pace squats, slow paused squats, normal pace bench (always paused on chest as you have to in comp), plus slow bench with an extra long pause, then normal deadlifts, and deadlifts stood on something to make it harder off the ground. I was doing deadlifts with the plates rested on something to do less pulling off the ground. A couple of weeks ago it was crazy less comp specific stuff so I was going wild with split squats, leg extensions, calf raises, single arm db bench, various rows, even some lat raises, but it's back to more comp specific now. And working on little nuances in form, like exactly where the bar hits my chest on bench, how far I lean forward on a squat, not bending my arms or legs between a deadlift rep. It's all very sport specific. I see others in the gym ramping up the weight but not hitting depth comp on a squat, cos they don't need to, or not pausing the bar on their chest again cos they don't need to, and it reminds me how comp specific my training is. It's pretty unique in that way cos most people in the gym are training that strength to actually meet a different goal, rather than what you do in the gym directly being your sport.

That's so interesting @RayKray . It really is very precise isn't it? Can I ask on bench, how far apart is your grip? And interesting too about your gym - what sort of gym is it?

@Proteinpud yes I will try to keep some stuff (I'd cut back on classes earlier in the year anyway to have more of a focus on strength and reps vs skills), and it will depend on when/if I go back to boxing. I'm doing bench and leg press and a couple of other things with my training partner, but might not on my own (especially bench). And the classes change sometimes too. So I will see! I do like mixing it up.

I need to try bodyweight Bulgarians too, and just slow controlled normal lunges.

I'm a bit baffled by the sled (?) leg press. I got 8 reps on 120 today, top set, and it says the base weight is 70-odd. Don't see how that can be

Ooh @RayKray I had deficit deadlifts programmed in my last cycle and it was crazy how much it impacted the movement, I ended up dropping the weight quite a lot - but it did seem to help with getting the bar off the ground. It was weird though. Somehow familiar but completely unfamiliar at the same time.

Your post has made me question my bench depth though 😂

We brought my bench grip in slightly recently. It's about 2 fingers in from the rings I'd say. I don't know why. There is a rule to do with bench depth to stop massive arch and minimal ROM., and people do bring their grip in to help with that, but I barely arch so I don't think that was why. I guess I'm stronger in that position.

And yeh the difference in that last bit of squat depth to be just below parallel is massive - that's the really hard bit. Both having the strength and mobility to be able to get that low and back up, and to consistently judge it. And I don't ever train it not to depth as you don't want to get sloppy with it as that ends up in no lifts at comp, which I've seen many times. Bombing out on squat after all that work wouldn't be fun. So I never get to see what I could do at just parallel or just above parallel. I still don't rep now though what I was repping when I wasn't to comp depth and it's been over a year.

My gym is a really small independent gym with lots of PT support. I'm the only powerlifter. Other people might do other sports, lots of runners/triathletes, lots who are also just wanting to get fitter, lots middle aged and older. Cos there's lots of PT support its strength focused, so everyone is doing some version of a hinge/squat/push but that might be a kettle bell deadlift or bodyweight sit down/stand up to a bench building their way up. Generally speaking its hex bar deadlifts and squats to about parallel or just above from what I see when people are using boxes/plates to help with depth consistency. I'm trying to convince other women to be powerlifters and there's some who are a bit interested but they've a way to go.

I have to really concentrate on getting to below parallel on my squats. It's not a mobility thing though, or not majorly so for me - I can sit in a squat quite comfortably. I tend to be quite upright in my squats and I think I lean forward that little bit more when I go ATG and I get scared I'm going to get stuck under the bar! I should just practice more at a lighter weight though. Are squat shoes allowed in powerlifting, or is it flats only? I'm always curious about whether raising heels is sensible or a bit of a cheat/workaround (apologies don't mean to offend anyone who uses them!)

Interesting what you said about the bench rule as well, I've seen people in gyms with dramatic arches and wasn't aware there was a rule to limit that. To me, holding that arch looks harder than trying to bench the higher weight!

I've seen people at my gym with a massive arch on the bench....it looks all wrong to my ignorant eye.

Powerlifting is all about moving the most weight possible one time, so on squats we often do have more of a forward lean cos that's how we lift heavier. So we might do low bar rather than high bar, where the bar is lower down the back, so leaning more forward is part of that. Doesn't make it a 'better' squat though, just one that is designed for a higher 1RM. Squat shoes are indeed allowed. My comp squat feels v different to other squats I sometimes do - I'd go lower and be more upright on a goblet or front squat for example as where your weight is is different.

The bench rule is new, controversial and only IPF not the other federations (I believe). IPF is the main one (and mine). The arch gives more stability where the shoulders are in contact with the bench and more leg drive., and less ROM but again it's getting the highest 1RM rather than 'better'. And you have to be able to get to the bench, get into that arch, unrack and get the start command (which means feet flat, bum on bench, arms locked) all in your 1 min from the bar being loaded. Bench is a faff

You are brilliant at explaining all this @RayKray

Agreed!
Also my issue about forward lean is not because I think it's bad form, it's because I panic and think I'll get stuck! I used to squat low bar (when I first learned to squat it was by watching Mark Rippetoe videos) but since coming back to it I can't seem to find a comfortable low bar position. I feel like I'm having to hold the weight up with my hands so I've obviously not found the right spot yet!

Re squatting in full RoM - do you use a squat rack with the safety rails @Proteinpud ? That really helps with confidence - I remember once trying to get to full depth with 70 kilos and had to bail out at the bottom, and just sort collapsed on the floor laughing - the bar was caught by the safety rails. But I felt OK because I knew the safety bar at the bottom would catch me.

It's also a useful guide to getting to full depth - I try to make sure I squat low enough for the bar to hit the safety rail and make a satisfying clang. The reason I failed at 70 was that it was my 2nd go at a 1RM that morning. The first time I was fine, but my PT is a stickler for correct form, and I got the 70 k down then up again except that my thighs were not parallel to the floor, so it didn't count according to him.

I think it's important to get to full depth - below parallel, but I'm pretty mobile/flexible (dance training my whole life). It's not really a proper squat if you don't go as far as you can AtG - you get a much better training effect, going low - because it's so much harder getting back up!!

Re. bench: I don't bench much, and tend not to use much of an arch, but I do like to feel I've got my shoulder blades under the bar - I really pull my scapulae together and then try to flatten them against the bench so I've got force right under the bar, if that makes sense? So I do get a wee bit of a back arch. But not a lot, as it goes into my lower back too much.

@YellowAsteroid I do squat with safeties, but they are webbed straps rather than bars, so although I know they're there, it's not obvious when I'm in that position if you see what I mean (there's no 'clang'!) I know in theory it's safe and fine, suppose there's part of my brain that feels vulnerable in the hole as it were, with a heavy weight on my back! And I used to have issues with squat form of my hips coming up and my upper body lagging which is exacerbated if I lean forward at the bottom of the squat.

I can squat low in bodyweight as it's mobility that comes up a lot in martial arts, but if I go full ATG I lose the lumbar position (the dreaded buttwink). It's annoying because in some ways that's an easier position to work to, it's easier to judge where you are.

Re bench, I was taught the cue of trying to put the bottom of your shoulder blades in your back pockets (that's actually the physio input, for keeping shoulders back) That works well for me, though doesn't lead to any arch - that might be flexibility, but I suspect could also just be that I'm a short arse and so my legs/hips are stretching towards the floor! My home bench is pretty low, in any commercial gym I've been to I used to have to find some weights plates to put my feet on lol!

I think the fear of buttwink is overstated - it's quite natural at the very bottom of a deep squat the pelvis to round under a tiny bit. But if you're braced and doing the breathing, it shouldn't injure you. My PT also gives me the cues for getting up: push from the heels, and push against the bar with your shoulders.

The shoulders cue really helps - I can get quite an explosive ascent thinking of using my shoulders - it's not a shrug though - just focus on using the shoulders.

I think there's always lots of ways to do things depending on goals. I don't go ATG cos my goal is to get the biggest comp legal squat not go as low as I can. Powerlifters also often round their back a bit deadlifting which for some is seen as a big deal. The bench arch comes from much more than shoulders as it's about engaging the legs, and you need to train that mobility in your back. It can't just be done without training it else it will hurt the back. I was benching today and managed to make my legs tired which is a great sign I'm actually engaging my legs which is progress!