Behavioural issues in horse we can’t handle

[MillsMollsMands]

I have a 14.2 mare with what the vet has described as behavioural issues (having had her for a full work up of x rays etc - she was lame in one hind when ridden but the vet considered that the behaviour was not solely caused by the pain). Hoping that with a steroid injection that will have cleared up - waiting for vet to come back next week.

she is actually not difficult in ridden work except plants/refuses to go. Never bucks or rears with a rider. She can be aggressive on the lunge (bucking, rearing, turning rear to handler) and being brought in from the field (spinning, barging, presenting rear) - can’t identify a consistent reason for this as sometimes will come in good as gold. She can be grumpy in the stable, not a mare who likes a fuss, but can be tacked up, groomed, shod & clipped…

she is our first horse and we bought her as a happy hacker a year ago and things have gradually unravelled. This is not what she is and neither me nor my teens have the experience to work with her. It turns out her previous owners saw the same behaviours but didn’t disclose to us. She is 13.

I feel very stuck - how do I find a home for her? I don’t care about making any money back, but how do I move on a horse with a vet history & behavioural issues? Will anyone take her?! I feel bad for giving up but what we can give her isn’t what she needs…

Whereabouts are you based, rescue centres or sanctuary do take horses, perhaps a quiet outdoor life with plenty of company, shelter would be better.

Can you afford to get a trainer or someone more experienced in to spend some time working with her and seeing if they can find a reason for her behaviour or a way to work through it and make her the pony you wanted?

She has probably just realised that she can get away with behaving badly , we had a big TB mare who was similar , she seemed to be able to sense if someone would be a push over and took advantage , whereas myself and my late dad had no problem with her . Have you had a professional in to work with her ?

Vets tend to say "its behavioural" when they don't know what's wrong. It rarely is, there will be a reason, the challenge is finding that reason. It could simply be the pain, it can be very difficult to judge how much pain a horse is in, some are very stoic and others much less so. Fingers crossed that the current treatment sorts the problems out but if not, looking fir experienced help should be your next step, imho.

Do you need to lunge her if no issues when ridden?

I would only lunge to take fizz off if child going on, unless exercising a competition horse.

the ground work just needs a firm hand as others have said. Carry a crop. No nonsense.

Try to recruit a helper who is not anxious, she absolutely will be feeling it from you.

I haven’t had a professional in to work with her although we have had an instructor for riding and another for groundwork sessions, both of which have considered her difficult.

I don’t think it’s just a question of her picking up on my anxiety as very experienced horse people on the yard will no longer bring her in from the field due to feeling unsafe, and there’s no doubt about their competence/experience/firm handling.

With the lameness and behaviour have you considered getting a really experienced farrier to take a look, they can see issues in x-rays and composition and can help to improve these quickly. I’d find someone experienced in remedial farriery before rehoming if you wanted to see if it can be resolved.

Happy hacker though. What was her routine. What has changed. Mares can be bloody minded.

hence my question does she need groundwork for hacking at this point.

does she have a friend in the field?

Has she gone from quiet field to busy yard or vice versa.

First thing I would do is have her scoped. See if there are any ulcers present as that can cause horses to behave ‘badly’. If all clear, get a physio out and see if they can find anything if the vet is adamant there is nothing else wrong. Same for teeth and saddle. After all of that, get a horse behaviourist in. There are many flavours. I have personally used someone that does natural horsemanship and she made a massive difference to one of my horses who was a complete stress head with separation anxiety. If you are in the south west, I would highly recommend Vanessa Bee.

I do really feel for you and have been there a few times over my years.

Very rural hill farm. So horses have run of about 250 acres of hill land. Whilst this sounds idyllic, the reality is a nightmare.

It suits retired, or youngsters, or recovering horses.

we have had school masters from riding schools come and go feral in days.

On the other hand we have had exceptionally highly strung horses arrive and thrive.

They can be so sensitive to the environment and set up.

I would do the follow ups others have suggested

And
appoint one or two people to take over daily routine. Firmly.

what is your grazing like?

look at hard feed. Does she need it? Is she getting to much?

cut out lunging, clearly unhappy with it.

Does she need more work? Can you get a sharer?

I don’t know what she would offer a sharer. She won’t leave the yard to hack - plants & wont go. Can be coaxed out with company but hard to find people to go out with although it’s a busy yard. Would love a share as even if she were the perfect horse I would need a share for her - the people we bought her with to share dropped out 6 months ago & I am struggling to cope…

she had ulcers initially on coming to us but has scoped clear for them.

grazing is 6 hours a day with a field mate.

@FlyingPinkUnicorn we are in the SW, she was seen by Steve Young in previous home - we only found this out when someone on the yard spotted his videos of it on FB and sent them to us.

I agree she probably needs a small set up, 24/7 outside with a shelter and a small herd. She doesn’t like other horses leaving so would need to all be out consistently… however that is rhe kind of setting she came from but she still had the same issues there (judging from what the behaviourist posted on his FB).

Has she constant access to forage? I have a pony who is currently stabled at night and if he runs out of hay he is very hangry. Good guide is if there is hay left in the morning. Horses are supposed to graze most of the time, it doesn't do them any good to have an empty stomach and uncomfortable leading back to ulcers again. What hard feed does she get if any?
If you are nervous of her she will pick up on this, my pony is very sensitive to mood and I'm learning how to regulate myself so he can keep himself calm, he relies on me and if he doesn't feel safe, he will let me know by pushing, leaning in to me and planting! I have a really great trainer who can see all this we are doing groundwork with and progressing to riding him again. We have her once a month so she sees progress.
Good routine if possible, say,just greet her calmly, talk to her don't touch her let her get used to you being around until she feels calm, feed, headcollar, reward, pick out feet, reward, calm in the stable, reward. Find what she likes as a reward, mine had carrots apples reward hierarchy of really high value and everyday ones. and scratches, particularly if he's rugged he really appreciates this! ! Keep it all slow and easy. and build up the relationship. It's not all about riding. The more time you spend with her, just hanging out, the better you will recognise any stress signs. I know it's not easy, I can be nervous and my pony hates being stabled but he's not at my yard at the or he'd be out 24/7 which is much easier for both of us! Sometimes the 'firm handling by others' can be detrimental too, I've been told to smack him for being 'rude' when he's freaking out about something or spooked, nope, that would make him far worse.

@lyrasdaemo by being firm I in no way meant smacking or even carrying a crop , I mean in in a confidence / attitude / approach . If you’d smacked my TB she would have smacked you back and she was a lot bigger than me .

Sometimes it’s better to sell them on. For the right price someone will buy her. I’ve had grumpy horses a few times and one or two I just didn’t get on with. I’d sell her.

I agree with scoping or even treating as if there are definitely ulcers present.
I would also do full vet with nerve blocks/xrays/mri but I appreciate the cost may be prohibitive.

Groundwork videos are free on FB/Youtube and the tools are cheap as chips on Amazon.

I have previously donated a beautifully bred competition horse to a rescue centre for similar reason that we couldn’t get to the bottom of. He’s now in a happy hacking home and it was the best outcome for both of us.
It was actually a reply to a post on MN like this that recommended them and I am eternally grateful for them helping me make that decision x

Ok so she is out 6 hours a day, but even if was 24 attaches to field mates.

so was she on 24 hour grazing. Is that possible? Is there a yard or set up with outdoor turnout and a change of field mates.

some just hate being inside.

that all being said, along with my previous posts, she’s not the partner for you.

I would want to try the next few months when sales quieten off to see if you can find the happy place.

If not, for a Pony that size I except a riding school set up would snap her up.

I'd look at testing for pssm. It can cause some weird issues but the main ones are not wanting to go forwards and lameness that comes and goes.

There's two type and you can only test for one but the treatment is through management and specific feeding.

Ovaries is another thing to look at- cysts can be horribly painful.

She might need a visit from a horse dentist. Be very careful who you get, lots of chancers about. Get a master dentist if you can. Find someone very experienced- aged owner of well respected riding school - to come and watch/ advise for an hour or so.

A horse you can't manage costs just as much as an easy one, so you might want to cut your losses.

Agree with not lunging, and don't start a fight with a horse unless you know what you are doing.

Next horse- get a gelding, nice cob sort. Ask where they have been with him, then ask around. Don't belive a word anyone says who is selling a horse. Or offer to share someone else's:)

Planting can sometimes be overcome by semi allowing the behaviour. So she doesn't want to go forward, ok so we're going to back up then. Or sideways. Or circle back a few strides and try again. Any direction is fine but she has to move. That seems to unstick their feet a bit and they will then go forward no problem.

I would treat her for acid/ulcers too. Even if you think she doesn't have them. It can't hurt them and hindgut ulcers are notoriously difficult to see. A month of Acid Ease or Gastroguard will do no harm and might improve the situation. My loan horse gets really bad acid, though no active ulcers and also got to a point he was almost unmanageable before anyone twigged what was wrong. It makes him a different horse. It's because he had ulcers in the past, I think its made his stomach super sensitive to acid burn.

I'd probably also give her a good dose of Buck Off in her feed and cut out excess sugar so no Likits, limit carrots and apples, no sweet feed. If this seems to help, you could also soak her hay. Use training treats suitable for laminitic horses. Last thing she needs is a sugar rush.

Disrespectful behaviour on the ground needs addressing in the moment. Take a lunge whip into the field with you. Every aggressive action, let her go and chase her off with the lunge whip.

Don't let her stop to eat grass, keep driving her on. Try again to catch her. If she turns her bum to you, repeat. Even if it means you're out there an hour just driving her round the field with the whip.

You have to make it harder work for her to play you up, than to just stand quietly and be caught. If she has energy to be a dick, she has energy to work so she can keep right on moving.

Eventually she'll twig that compliance is the road to an easy life.

Any positive interaction, reward it. Have stashes of training treats in every coat pocket. Rewards have to be within 5 seconds of the event or she won't connect them. Give nothing for free. She must earn it.

If you want to take the time with her you can try in hand groundwork to develop a bond and trust to help her be confident enough to listen and work with you, rather than relying on her own instinct squarespace . A friend runs NoBackNoHorse a fb group with free in hand groundwork exercises you can follow which are approved by an ACPAT physio, she also does remote lessons for a reasonable charge.
I found them very helpful for my reactive Iberian mare to get her to listen, and the skills were equally useful when handling fit endurance competition horses.
she has also rehabbed multiple horses that were given up on by other professionals
It will take time, if you want to invest in trying to build the relationship this type of groundwork may be helpful.
though as others have said I can also understand if you are less confident and don’t feel you have the time then finding the right home for her may be the kindest answer

If she has been seen by Steve Young then I think the old owners were struggling and they are in the wrong for not disclosing.

So many difficult horses end up a merry go round of dealers yard and being passed around.

If you're not bothered about the money then. I would consider loaning her out. A pony that is well behaved to ride at the size will be in high demand and you can be really picky that she goes to the right home.

If you do decide to sell them you need to be very very honest about her issues. Problem is is that if she is 'cheap' she can be sold on for r a fast £.

Ultimately though you bought a pony to have fun with and it's not fun! There is no shame in admitting that you're not the right fit.

I haven't had time to read all the comments but I'd say she sounds like she could have ulcers and I see you've said she's been rescoped clear, however i'd get her scoped if it was some time ago or make sure she has hay or chaff before ridden activity to prevent splash of acid in the stomach

I'd also consider putting her on a bute trial to see if her actions are as a result of musco skeletal pain. Horses generally aren't naughty for no reason consistently. Yes they have the odd buck or rear but it sounds like she initially started her behaviour by whispering to you, then when know one understood her protests she increased her protests by telling you and now she's finally resorted at shouting at you.

Agree with @Blankscreen. Steve Young is known for sorting out problem horses so sounds like it's a long standing issue. Selling her cheap she'll probably get sold again by some dealer making money on her and their customer ends up in the same position you are.
What was the Steve Young video dealing with? Could you try contacting him - he might be able to tell you if it's a fixable problem. He might also have an idea if he thought there was a pain issue.
As someone else said have ovarian issues/cysts been considered?

Thanks for all the thoughts - I have spent a year trying all sorts of different things (teeth, saddle, physio, liberty, groundwork, buck off, stroppy mare etc). She’s currently on Ulsgard, dengies happy tummy, and blue chip calming balancer.

I do think that an experienced owner who has a background in schooling etc could take her back to basics and re start her. I don’t think that will be me, no matter how many YouTube videos I watch of Tristan Tucker.

From the dates of the video with Steve Young, it looks like he saw her about 2 months before she was put up for sale. I’ve only seen his trailers of it, he didn’t reply to a request for more information, but it looks like similar behaviours to those we experience (although she is much less girthy since the ulcers were treated).

Even if she were perfect, I don’t have enough time for her. This is why we took her on as a 50% share, but unfortunately the other family dropped out the second the problems appeared. I don’t think she could have a sharer now, I think she needs a small number of consistent handlers & frankly I would worry about what might happen if she kicked off.

so my conclusion really is that she needs a new home, we aren’t the best place for her. I am really worried about what happens next to her, and that’s really my question, as to how I make that happen.