Distracting horse for the farrier and picking feet up

[PonyPlaiter]

I’m a novice owner with my first horse - Im not the most confident person in the world. I've had my rising 5 year old horse for 8 weeks now and had the hoof trimmer out to him once. He is very bad at having his hooves picked up let alone held onto to pick them out. He snatches them away and will paw forwards to get them away from you. If you hang onto his hoof he will start hopping around. If you are very firm and manage to hold on sometimes he will stand still, sometimes he gets more determined to put his hoof down. He is the same if other people do it - they just faff around less than me. I’ve been told to put his hoof down as soon as he stands still as a reward but hang onto it while he’s messing about. I’ve only ever dealt with horses who will stand quietly to have their feet picked out before. Every day is a struggle to get his hooves done and I hate doing it. Rarely anyone around to ask for help/hold buckets of food etc

when the farrier came we tried treats for standing still and eventually resorted to a bucket of dampened chaff which the horse inhaled. Farrier told me to get a molasses lick for next time so I’ve bought him a horselyx mint one (he likes his minty pellet treats) which he doesn’t like - he doesn’t like strongly flavoured things. These things are £6 a pop - I don’t want have to buy one of each!

are there any which don’t have a strong flavour? Or is there a common sense solution to slowing down the chaff consumption so I can just use that? He has issues around food as he was very thin when I got him so I don’t want to cause frustration.

im picking his feet out every day but he’s not really getting any better at it. Is there a better way? Hoof trimmer is due again in about 2 weeks. He’s seen a physio and while his balance and muscle were very much lacking and I don’t think he had the strength to stand on 3 legs, he is now up to weight and is being long lined regularly to build muscle.

sorry for the rambling post!

He sounds like he's got a few issues going on. One, a total lack of training. And two, not much strength. Google carrot stretches to help him stretch and work on his balance and coordination. And then yes, you need to be handling his feet multiple times a day - this HAS to be your main priority as you'll lose your farrier if you don't get this sorted. Make sure you're wearing boots and hat, pick up his foot and bend his leg so that it's harder for him to throw it out. Initially praise and release the leg for even a fraction of a second of calmness. Then build to being able to hold for a second, then another etc. If he hops around just calmly move with him but keep hold of his foot. Do it in the school or on grass just in case either of you have a wobble.

If you’re not confident he will be picking up on that as well. Did you have him vetted before you bought him and if so did the vet say anything about it?

The horses you’ve known before who would happily pick up their feet weren’t born that way, they had to be trained. He’s rising 5 so he’s coming into his bolshy teenager phase and he will be pushing boundaries and seeing what he can get away with. Unfortunately for him, foot care is absolutely not negotiable so you do need to get this sorted. Can you get someone in to give you some groundwork and stable management lessons - it won’t be cheap but think of it as an investment in your future relationship.

PS the maroon licks are less pungent, just molasses flavour so might be more palatable to him (and £6 is not even a drop in a drop in the ocean of horse-related costs 😬)

DHorse had been a paddock pet for a while before he came to me, and had a painful hoof crack followed by a series of abscesses which made him averse to having the other feet picked up, as it meant weight on the bad foot. I fed him shamelessly for the farrier. Bucket of dampened chaff and hard feed, hay if he got through the bucket, carrot chunks at regular intervals. This made him calmer so I could manage to hold his lead rope with one hand while feeding the carrot chunks, and holding up the feed bucket if the farrier needed his head up.

He cannot know that the process is good for him, so to me it makes sense to make it as pleasant and calm as possible. He is highly food-motivated :)

He still gets a carrot chunk for every foot picked out, and is starting to make that positive association. He will now lift his front feet quite voluntarily when I ask.

I agree with @Pleasedontdothat that you need to get some ground work / management lessons and also need to find some confidence from somewhere otherwise this is not going to improve . Back in the day I had an ex race mare who was an absolute menace if she sensed a weakness and she literally terrorised my sister and my mum , was an angel with me . Horse ownership is supposed to be enjoyable .

thanks for the thoughts - perhaps I should have been clearer. I did seek out advice/ had a groundwork lesson from my instructor where she showed me what to do, which is what I said I’d been doing above. Ask him to pick up his foot and hang onto it for dear life until he stops trying to pull it away from me, no matter what that looks like (pawing with his front hooves and hopping dramatically so I’m worried he will fall), then letting go to reward for stillness with the aim of building up the time I can hold it for. Other people say I should smack him which I don’t want do really. I’ve been doing this at least twice a day for several weeks and it’s not improving which is why I’m asking if there’s any other approach I could try. At this point I’ve stopped trying to pick out his feet and just trying to lift and hold them and pick out when I can.

i think if you watched me you wouldn’t think I lack confidence - and I don’t let him “get away” with it, we always end on a good (or good enough) note. I think a lot of it is frustration that something this basic should be easily achievable and it’s not. As well as all the excellent points about how it’s necessary for his health, his hooves should be picked out daily, people at the yard judging me for struggling with a basic task, and the fact that my farrier won’t put up with it if he keeps misbehaving!

I don’t mean this reply to sound snippy but I feel like it might - it’s not intended to, promise. Will buy a maroon lick, add daily carrot stretching and keep trying, and otherwise keep a bucket of chaff handy!

I don’t advocate any type of smacking , if you had smacked my mare she would have smacked you back ! You do need to hang onto the hoof/leg until it’s still enough to pick out and then you put it down and reward , it’s pretty unlikely that the horse will actually fall over even though it may look like it . If possible have someone handy with treats to hand out if he behaves and make sure you use a cue word .

I always find it easier in a stable rather than out on the yard so they can't move around as much. Can you tie him up with a haynet while you practice?
How is he to brush his legs? it is literally just the feet that are a problem?

Oh I’ve never smacked him and I wouldn’t but that’s what some people are telling me to do when I ask for advice in person. Hay isn’t a big enough motivator for him, he just ignores a haynet, even with treats and bits of carrot in the top. I’ve tried him tied in his stable, in an undercover area in crossties and tied outside on the yard to a single point. I haven’t tried him with someone holding him - again there aren’t often people around that id feel comfortable asking.

He’s not keen on having his legs brushed but he does let me do it - they were quite scabby when I got him with what was apparently mud fever but that seems to have cleared up.

I’ve also tried clicking and treating - he knows what the clicker is and I can use that without anyone else there but it’s not having a discernible effect on him.

actually Cumbrian Heavy Horses have posted a video of two of their horses showing very similar behaviour to what I’m dealing with - luckily mine is only 14.2

It's definitely easiest to hold on if you get a full leg fold - he has to work much harder to fling it forward. But it does take time - like most of us he'll do the minimum he can get away with. You can clicker train the behaviour, but the issue is you might not get it done before he needs trimming again which will undo some of your work. If you want to clicker train then pick up the foot and hold your clicker (or reteach him a marker word which is easier than a clicker as you always have your voice with you!). The split second he stands still you click. You can then let go and reward. As long as he thoroughly understands that the click signifies that the reward was earnt he will link the reward with holding his foot still rather than the release.

yes I think timing could improve for sure - changing the clicker out for a word is a good idea because I can’t juggle hooves and hoof pick and clicker!

It's a lot!! Just be sure to choose a word you don't use day to day - so not "good" for instance. "Yes" works well as it doesn't feel to cumbersome but you don't use it the same way as good boy for instance. Every time you say it it has to lead to a reward (even if you cock up the timing) to keep the association strong.

Also the best way to practise is with a friend/partner. Decide what you want to "train" them e.g. touch their head. Tell them to move around and mark when they raise their hand. And then when they raise higher. And then when they raise higher but close to their head. Keep narrowing it down with just your word/clicker until they get it. If your timing is wrong they'll latch on to the wrong thing.

Clicking with your mouth also works - just make sure it's a very different sound of you also use clicking to mean 'walk on' etc.

Clicker training is very step by step so you wouldn't start with a clicker, hoofpick & treats all in your hands at the same time.

Start with touching a hoof & the smallest response towards picking it up eg shifting weight is rewarded then build it up to lifting the hoof, then touching the hoof when it's up then eventually holding it then finally touching with hoof pick.

Once you have trained each stage you don't need to click & reward just when you look for the next step. By the time you get to actually picking out with a hoof pick you won't need the clicker & treats.

It sounds more complicated than it is. I use it on semi feral new forest youngsters & you can get to the point of lifting & picking out all 4 hooves in about 3 sessions of training.

It's worth putting the time & patience into clicker training as it makes everything else easier in the long run eg avoids clipping & loading problems.

Thanks for this - sometimes I struggle to break things down to that level so actually that’s really helpful. I had started touching his legs and clicking for doing that, then progressed to attempting to pick the hoof up and rewarding for a slight try. So I definitely think I could add in some more steps, like getting him to offer lifting his own foot instead of me holding onto it. I think fear of judgment was causing me to rush him and think it wasn’t working - I’ll do what you suggest tomorrow and see how we get on and see if he’s more comfortable with that

thanks!

Take it really slowly & don't try to do the whole lot in one go. You might get one foot lifted then give a big reward but then stop. Go back to it tomorrow.

They also need breaks & downtime in learning anything.

See if there is a trainer near you - search for R+/positive reinforcement trainer.

I followed your advice tonight and had a very positive and much more relaxed session with him. I didn’t try and pick up his hoof for him, I ran my hand down his leg and waited for him to offer to pick it up and clicked for that. He voluntarily lifted 3/4 hooves off the ground (he really struggles with one of his back ones so I rewarded him for the slightest try) and then we walked round the yard and did his front hooves in various spots with him not tied up. All very calm and neither of us got frustrated - absolutely no pawing from him either. I’m looking forward to trying again tomorrow! Which is actually the best thing I think - I’m not dreading attempting it like I was a couple of days ago.

That's amazing! Your patience paid off
R+/clicker training is a really powerful tool for horses & owners.

Just commenting for moral support OP. Sounds like you did brilliantly following the steps suggested by @Serencwtch

One of mine was a nightmare when I first got him. We got through a trimmer and three farriers (not all just due to him but he had repeated abscesses and it was super stressful) as he’s huge and if he didn’t want to or couldn’t stand anymore he’d just throw himself onto the floor 😕 Wouldn’t stand still for the farrier, would lean when you picked one up, or just point blank refuse to let you pick it up at all. I cried big snotty tears over it.

What helped was: big strong farrier who didn’t acknowledge any of the behaviours. He was never unkind he just got on with his job as best he could. I also picked each foot up every day and rewarded him each time. And finally he’s built a huge amount of muscle now compared to early days and can manage so much better. It’s actually a very useful indicator for me before a ride of whether he’s feeling ok. If he’s struggling to pick up, it usually means he’s a bit stiff.

He has a verbal cue and I touch the hoof I want and he lifts it up. Keep going ❤️

Some good advise already given above. My particular advise would be to watch a video from Steve young horseman there is a fairly old one where he helped a pony who refused to lift his feet, it will give you some further ideas on how to tackle this problem.

Thank you - unfortunately I don’t particularly like Steve young, he doesn’t always do things in the best interest of the horse in my opinion. Just watched the vid just in case - I don’t think his approach would have gone particularly well for us but I appreciate you making your post to try and help me!

however I have been following some of the advice above and I’m very happy to report we are making excellent progress - my horse happily lifted and held his more tricky front leg when I lightly touched his shoulder earlier - I didn’t even need to run my hand down! That was the one he was particularly bad at pawing with - to say I was ecstatic with him would have been an understatement!

still slower going with the back legs but I think he’s still in the process of realising he’s a lot stronger than he was. Most importantly we aren’t getting in a fight, it’s all much more relaxed, and now that I can see it’s working I have a ton more confidence to keep going with it. I honestly think if I’d carried on the way I was going one of us would have got hurt so… thanks for all the advice!

I’ve never had that problem but I did laugh when I saw this! Who knows, it might work!

https://www.tiktok.com/@bviralofficial/video/7319631842334739758

Hi OP, I have a rising 3 yo, and had very similar issues to you. The first time the farrier came, a couple weeks after I brought her, he asked me you show him how I pick her feet up and I (embarrassingly) wasn’t able to because well… I was scared of picking them up, she was young and almost completely untouched before I brought her.

When he first sore her he called her ‘wild’ and after much stress he only managed to file her front 2, because she was so stressed. And booked to come back in 4 weeks, to do the back two. He told me what I needed to do, and I worked so hard with her every single day, consistently.

When he came back 4 weeks later, he was in complete shock, she was a different horse, he was even able to do all 4, she stood there beautifully, and unlike the previous visit, that took an hour, and lots of stress, this time it took him 20 minutes, no stress.

So he told me to do these things:

-Firstly I would STOP picking up her feet, and picking them out altogether, and go right back to basics, as the moment it’s just a vicious cycle of - stress for her - stress for you - stress for her - stress for you and it will not get better, she will just resist it more and more, and will feed on your stress also.

-Put a rope tie up in her stable and bring her in and tie her up in the stable twice a day (or every single time your at the yard), so she gets used to standing there and relaxes (this could take a week or two) do not move on to the next step until she’s calm standing there, making it a positive experience

-once she gets used to this routine I would start rubbing my hands down all 4 legs, keeping it very short (around 2 minutes in total) and stopping while she’s still in ‘relax’ mode. I would keep doing this until she is completely comfortable and relaxed every time

-then I would continue rubbing down and 4 legs, and pick just one foot up, and put it straight down again (don’t pick) before she gets a chance to stress. Once comfortable with this, I would do it too two feet, then 3, then all 4

-then when she’s totally comfortable with all of this I would gradually add in picking them out, again one at a time until she’s totally relaxed either you doing it

I have a 900kg ardenne mare that would just slam her feet down, I have trained her with help from equiliberta (hoof trimmer) she is not shod, I make a click noise and food reward starting very small and building up she is now trimmed without holding or being tied up. Because she is so heavy I have taught her to tip her feet on her toe to pick out, saves holding her very heavy legs!
I use the click for everything I can send her away to wait until I click and she will then come for her feed, she has learnt lots of things like this at liberty.