Bit for strong pony

[sheep73]

Our Welsh B is normally ridden in a Dutch gag and totally fine on a quiet hack or in an arena.

However in an open space with other horses (think fun ride / hunting) she can be extremely strong when cantering etc. A friend suggested fulmer so we tried that and steering was much better than the Dutch gag but NO brakes.

I tried pony with an older larger child to test it was not the child and conclusion came back the same - no brakes with fulmer but better steering.

A Waterford with fulmer has been suggested but older child (having tried pony herself) thinks that will not be sufficient. Older child is suggesting a tom thumb.

I am new to the bitting business but need a solution for next Monday. What is the consensus on a bit for a pony that can be very strong? Note we would use the Dutch gag for normal riding (hack / arena).. we're just looking for something for riding at speed in the open..

Stop upping the hardware and look at the software instead. Back to basics, schooling and communication between rider and pony.

Why is Monday so important? Is there a better trained pony the child can ride instead?

(I'm not unsympathetic, I have a now retired Section D who used to take a....hold with a novice-y rider but was a dream to ride with someone who knew how to use legs, seat and hands together).

If the child can't control the pony the answer isn't to keep putting more severe equipment in its sensitive mouth so the kid can go haring around the countryside by Monday.

You're obviously expecting too much of the pony, the child or both.

Hmm, I rode my old mare in a Tom Thumb mullen mouth for years, double reins. I used that bit as a really experienced rider with a good seat and sensitive hands.

You can’t rush a solution ‘for Monday’. Wrong pony/rider combination for whatever you have in mind.

Do you have an instructor and what do they recommend? What kind of strong is the pony, i.e. what does he do when he's getting strong/ignoring the aids?

It isn't a simple case of bits being on a spectrum from 'weak' to 'strong', if you put on a bit which has a curb action on a pony which already tends to want to lower its head and lean on the hands you will often actually make it worse not better. The fact you use a Dutch gag at the moment (which is already a strong bit on its own btw) though implies he's more of a head in the air type, is that right? Do you have a martingale on him and what type, running or standing and are you confident it's correctly fitted? What noseband? Does your child have soft hands, not only not liable to catch him in the mouth but also knowing how to give a proper half half and let go rather than hanging on? If no to the latter I'd simply not take them wherever you're planning on going or keep on a lead rein, as no bit in the world is going to guarantee your child's safety and if the pony isn't used to it they may react unexpectedly or even violently.

Personally my go to with a stargazer/pulling type (alongside proper schooling of both pony and child of course) is a Waterford, with or without a properly fitted standing martingale and/or a grackle noseband - all of which should encourage lower head carriage and still give margin for softness when the pony is soft, but the child must must know not to pull on the ponies mouth with a Waterford in (not that they should ever pull but you know what I mean). You could also try a Pelham with roundings as this has both a curb and a snaffle action so gives a good degree of control over where the pony has his head but again mustn't be misapplied in a panic, rider has to be able to keep soft and balanced hands at all times as otherwise you'll just confuse and upset the poor animal no end?

A few years back I had a Connemara/TB cross on loan for a while. He was very strong, very fast, pulled like a train and had a tendency to bolt. They had him in a twisted pelham, plus a drop noseband and a running martingale.

I jettisoned the lot and put him in a rubber snaffle with an ordinary noseband.

He was much happier in it. Took him a while to get used to it though, and I did get carted off a few times, but stopping him didn't cause him any pain, so he had nothing to run away from.

Dutch gag was used by previous owner and their child. Pony is forward but under control for show jumping and quiet hack with 1 or 2 other ponies.

In open spaces with other horses she gets fizzy (pony not child) and when moving at speed is then difficult to stop i.e. she tanks off. She is ridden in a grackle and running martingale.

She can also be very strong on the ground. She's just quite buzzy / competition pony. Previous owners also found her buzzy and they had her for 3 years. Pony is 17. Child is 11.

Different child or pony is not a viable alternative!

Then cancel Monday. Not the end of the world.

Hmm yes I get the pony is strong/fizzy/doesn't want to stop but what I mean is physically what is she doing when this is happening and the rider is using rein and seat aids to ask her to slow down, aside from simply not slowing down? I.e. is she putting her head down between her knees and pulling downwards against the riders hands? Or throwing her head upwards so they can't keep a consistent contact? Opening her mouth? Crossing her jaw? Bucking or bunny hopping? Crab moving sideways or just pissing off at speed? Like I said it's hard to advise what bit would work best without knowing what it is she's actually doing to evade the aids. Just sticking more metal work in won't necessarily help without encouraging her to put her head in the right place and actually accept the contact which really only comes through consistent schooling but even as just a little additional assistance in an exciting situation you and the child do need to know what you're doing with it and why otherwise you risk just getting into a pulling war which you can't win...

just pissing off at speed.

She's fine in a relaxed environment / show jumping .. it's in more exciting environments .. she gets over excited..

No problem controlling her in a relaxed / contained environment. She's naturally quite wired even on the ground but straight forward to ride usually except in open / exciting environments..

It’s the wrong pony/child combo for the job planned on Monday. Dangerous and reasonable to assume unfair on both.

The fact that you’re asking here, rather than asking a pro/trainer who knows pony, child and environment says volumes.

I agree, don't go on Monday.

It's not fair on the pony to put it into a situation where the only way it can be under control is to have a very harsh bit in the hands of an 11 year old child. Your desire to take them to whatever the event is on Monday shouldn't outweigh the welfare of the pony or the safety of both of them.

I agree with Maxelly, you need to establish what the horse is doing. Gags for ponies that evade by sticking their nose into their chest are no good.

I do like a Waterford mouthpiece as it’s much harder for them to set against it.
I also do like a Pelham with two reins with the curb rein used sparingly.

However there is only so much difference hardware is ever going to make, and constantly going stronger and stronger with the bit can just make them better at evading

Have you looked at her feed? Sorry to butt in, and it's been a while since I had this kind of issue (now I only ride ponies that match my energy!) but are you feeding her 'fizzy' foods to keep her up for competition? We had a few that we had to drop down to not much more than free grazing and hay, because any kind of hard feed made them almost impossible to handle.

I would second looking at her feed. Also, how much turnout does she get? When was the last time that her teeth were checked?

I had one who was very very strong XC, perfectly mannered in a snaffle showjumping and at home but used to love eventing and p*ss off with me cross country. The only bit I found that suited him was a loose ring cheltenham gag. He responded to gentle hand aids and I found it to be much kinder than me hauling his mouth off when he was charging to a fence at 100mph.

I'd definitely advise getting a bitting expert out or asking your instructor though - lots of trial and error with bits. A bitting expert will advise you on the best mouthpiece to suit your horses mouth shape and tongue size etc.

In an ideal world we'd all ride in snaffles and no nosebands all the time but some horses just aren't suited to this and it can get dangerous.

A kimblewick is often a good choice for a strong pony doing exciting activities. They aren't as common now as the Dutch gag seems to be used for those scenarios but they are a very useful bit.

You need a curb strap/chain with it, and I would buy one with slots (a Uttoxeter Kimblewick) so you can try it without putting the reins through the slots first then with the top slot, then the bottom slot.

Do you use the dutch gag for schooling at home? If the pony is quiet in the school then why can't you use a snaffle so they don't always have the gag in? It's not always one tool for all jobs.

i used a Tom thumb as a child to hunt and XC my 12.2hh but i was already use to schooling ponies in a snaffle in an outline at home so my hands were very quiet (still are!)

I also think dutch gags should be used with two reins, and in the past have used it with a leather curb strap too when i had a cocky welsh pony on the jumping circuit

If the gag action doensn't work in the high sports mode situations, then i'd try a curb bit.

i bet this pony is so fun though!! just my type!!

Try a kimblewick. They are seen as a bit old fashioned now & wilkies/gags becoming trendy but they traditionally work well for kids on strong ponies.
Alot of ponies respond better to the curb pressure than to the poll pressure from a gag.

You can get slotted kimblewicks which have a poll action too.

My Forester is strong when he's out & never got on with gag type bits as he hated the poll pressure. I also found he hated drop & grackle nose bands.

My pony was very strong however he went better with a kineton noseband than a grackle. I preferred that too so I didn’t damage his mouth using strong bits and I tried various ones borrowed from mates. The noseband was key for him though.

Thanks to those who have had a similar pony.. I appreciate in an ideal world all ponies would be perfectly schooled and be bitless.

The Waterford was suggested by the instructor. I've also spoken to a bit person who just said it's trial and error. We tried a Waterford.. marginal improvement but nothing dramatic.

Good point re hard food - that's been cut out.

Yes she's a fun pony. It's definitely a case of needing different bits for different horses and different occasions.

I always found Waterfords as useful as a chocolate teapot! But so many people rate them.

a Dutch gag is already a strong bit and you may find it has more effect if you are using it only when needed. If pony is quiet day to day then why not put it in a simple snaffle then pull out the breaks when needed? Our pony is very strong so use a universal for pony racing and hunting but stick to a snaffle the rest of the time or at least put the rein on the big ring. Are you using a curb strap? It shouldn’t really be used without one - it will give you more breaks without over rotating so is kinder at the same time. A Waterford in inexperienced hands would likely just hurt the pony’s mouth but if determined to go, probably wouldn’t stop it