Discuss with a mare?

[Drivingmissmaisie]

I’ve heard the saying ‘tell a gelding, ask a stallion, discuss with a mare’ (or something like that) but how does that actually play out in practice?

I’m still a novice and some of my discussions with my (nappy) mare seem to result in her saying no, me trying to let her have a moment before I ask again but her generally throwing her toys out of the pram if she really doesn’t want to do something. The more pressure eg leg, I put on her, the more she says no! I have reversed to get her past things occasionally and hoped she wouldn’t notice.

What does ‘discussing’ successfully with a mare actually look like?

I personally believe all behaviour is communication. I think mares are often more ‘problematic’ as they frequently have hormonal issues, whereas the geldings just don’t! I’m not saying there’s always pain if you encounter a problem, but in most cases I’ve experienced there has been.

I think sayings like this come from people assuming behaviour is marish when an animal is in pain…

My instructor told me to remember that a mare is as much an "entire" horse as a stallion.

What are you trying to do with her when you’re having these disagreements? Are you riding in the school, leading her to her paddock, hacking out etc?

I have plenty of discussions with my gelding so I think it is more down to personality. If you tell us the issue someone may have experience to share.

She is fine in the school but nappy hacking out. In the last couple of months she has had her teeth done, saddle checked and physio so hopefully it isn’t pain- related.

I was just wondering what ‘discussions’ you have as I feel we do have a ‘conversation’ when she plants and I stay pretty calm and consistent but she can be very determined to turn around. I have resorted to getting off, leading her out of the yard and getting back on again!

I should have added she is absolutely great being led and in her stable.

If leading her for a bit and getting back on works do that. My gelding is nappy but it always started when he got away from the yard. I overcame it by riding him a bit further each day until I could go for a decent hack. He still tries to turn around when we get to the furthest point of our hack and picks up the pace when we do turn towards home.
Once you get on outside the yard does the nappiness continue?

Yeah I don't really like that saying, to me it kind of smacks of the bad old days of attributing any behaviour we didn't like (despite the saying, in mares or geldings) to naughtiness and defiance whereas I just don't think horses brains work that way. Of course you do have to remember mares have a fully functioning set of hormones and reproductive system so their behaviour can vary at different times of the month and if you think that might be an issue there are hormonal control medications - I'd consult with your vet and instructor first though.

There's also an interesting theory that herd dynamics can play a big part with mares and whether they show dominance behaviours with humans and/or how receptive they are to human leadership/control. Personally I do think knowing where any horse is in the herd can help us understand their personality but I don't think it translates neatly to how they are to ride or to relate to humans. In my anecdotal experience the trickier mares I've had to do with have all been lower ranking (so theoretically used to being dominated and following a lead), they've tended to be more anxious and difficult to communicate with generally whereas the more dominant mares have been bolder and more confident and a bit easier on the whole to work with and train.

What do 'discussions' look like (as opposed to asking or telling), I have a gelding at the moment but he can have a nappy or spooky/spinny moment too, generally due to nerves. I think it's about clear, calm communication of what you're wanting, don't over-escalate or lose your rag, look for compromise - e.g. it's generally quite helpful with a nappy horse to try not to let them plant, so if I think he's going to I will keep asking him to move his feet even if that's sideways, on the spot or even backwards rather than forward. Sometimes he'll agree to back past whatever it is he's looking at rather than walk forward , or like you I might hop off and walk him on foot. I always praise any forward effort even if too much or not in the right direction. Some people would probably see all this malarkey and say I just need to kick him forward or give a good hard tap with the crop behind the leg and those are tools in the discussion but I would only use them if I was really sure he was deliberately ignoring me which he isn't usually. Think of it like a discussion with a team member at work where you're giving them an instruction and you've asked politely once - you wouldn't normally leap to yelling 'Oi! I told you to do X!' unless you knew the colleague very well and that's what they respond to, you might try repeating the request slightly more firmly or explaining again in a different way if they haven't understood, or accepting their offer to do the task slightly differently if it gets the same result or reassuring them if they've got into an anxious tizz or whatever suits them and the situation- same with the horse. That's a discussion to me and I think we owe our horses similar courtesy...

She is a lot less nappy once out of the yard, though isn’t keen on big puddles when alone.

It sounds like I’m not alone! I think it comes from her being worried rather than just being stubborn and I feel I need to improve so she has more faith in me!

That's very true, and mares of course cycle, much like women do (sort of). With some mares, this can be very obvious, and with others, barely noticeable, but it helps to be observant and sympathetic. E.g. my mare sometimes clearly says, "please get off my ovaries" at certain times, and can become quite tense in her back and/or very distracted by male horses. At such times, it helps to do lots and lots of stretching and loosening work, lots of lateral work, and avoiding canter. Or simply going for long hacks, if she's really not in the right headspace for schooling.

The problem you mention re. hacking alone is probably less due to her being a mare (although it's possible she feels responsible for her group, and doesn't want to leave them), and more to do with confidence on her own. It's quite a common problem that I've struggled with with various horses, and there are a few strategies to try. Getting off and leading is perfectly legitimate, if this makes her feel happier. With my mare, leaving the yard at trot can also help, depending on the situation.

I always heard it was tell a gelding, ask a mare and discuss it with a stallion. Not sure it applies with all horses but having worked with stallions I can confirm they are the worst 😂

I absolutely love mares, but I do think you have to build a bond with them. In my experience they can be more emotionally intelligent and won't do anything for just anyone.

I think a good foundation of trust comes from groundwork and spending time understanding your horse.