Full Livery - is this normal ?

[Finetoday]

I’ve had horses on full livery at 1 previous yard, so not much to compare current situation to.

Main issue -
All livery horses out 24/7 from April to October (Owners horses always in at night). Then November to March all livery horses in 24/7 (owners horses continue daily turn out where possible, but most days). This means owners have to ride/lunge every day, as apart from 20 mins on the walker, they’re stood in.

Other issues-
1 bag of bedding per week which is usual IME, but previously I would stockpile the summer ones while horses are out, so get 2 per week. Not on this yard. Any extra need paying for or they get tiny beds. Also, only the poo is removed. The wet is banked up in the day to dry out.
Annually there is a 10% price increase.

I really like the people on the yard, and the facilities are great, but I am now considering moving as I don’t think this is a typical full livery.

I wouldn't like it! But I think being in 24 7 in the winter at livery is quite common. My boy wouldn't cope with that so I have him in a nearby field over the winter. The bed thing seems mean.

Also I thought with full livery it was just that, full, so the owners would at least lunge them every day

Being in 24/7 is so bad mentally and physically and usually because the yard is overstocked for the grazing.
The wet bedding is unacceptable and will increase chances of respiratory disease. All wet bedding should be removed at least once a day unless deep litter system.

No that’s not normal and sounds awful for the horses

1 bale will not be enough for in 24 hours, not even close, sorry, on top of respiratory issues I would add basic thrush in feet. I tried to go on two bales a week once and didn't manage it and that horse had turn out but was messy. Is the hay rationed too? Yards are always a compromise but this sounds quite extreme and I would quietly start looking round rather than asking to change the set up as clearly they are just looking to maximise on income

No way. I’d never allow my horses in for 24/7 unless extreme weather and only for a day at most then. They are out in rain/snow etc.

No that is not normal and I’ve been at lots of full livery yards ( owned for 40+ years , full livery for 32 years) . I require all year daily turnout for a reasonable number of hours except in extreme conditions and no way would I have a horse standing in for the whole winter . It sounds like a terrible yard actually .

This set up of being in basically 24/7 for months every year is not an acceptable or humane way to ‘keep’ horses. It simply doesn’t meet their basic need for freedom of movement, the three most basic freedoms that horses have need for are friends ( including the choice to groom, touch and watch over each other), forage- stabled horses tend to eat their ‘quota’ quickly as theres nothing else to do then stands for hours and hours with empty likely ulcerating tummies, then ‘freedom’ as we cant just let them roam freely this equates to the freedom to move around a reasonable amount.
it’s my honest opinion that if the above freedoms cannot be provided then it’s not possible to keep horses ethically.

Not acceptable. The mucking out and bedding is inadequate and and horses should have daily turn out. If the owner can turn their own horses out they could put whole yard out on 2 hour rotation. They are either ignorant or just can't be bothered. I would find a new yard.

@elastamum I agree - surely better for all horses to have some turnout but for shorter periods ?

They always have plenty of hay, both when inside or outside (very ulcer aware due to previous experience sadly).

All stables have very good rubber matting so bedding banked during day.

I hack, school or lunge every day to get them out for a leg stretch but it’s like having another job in the winter and I’m literally dreading them coming in next month. I agree most yards are a compromise but this is not sustainable.

Did they make it clear when you moved your horses in that it would be 24/7 during the winter months? I’ve never known anywhere do that unless there was an exception medical need to a particular horse for a short duration.

Keeping horses in a stable 24/7 is cruel.

Depends on where your yard is and what others in the area are doing in my experience. Areas where land is a premium (cities, outskirts and central), quite common. More rural areas, less so, unless prone to flooding.

More common now is the use of a horsewalker in the full livery price or small all weather turnout pens to offset the lack of turnout.

The shavings thing, I think you were lucky to be able to 'bank' shavings over the summer. I haven't come across this before and have been full livery on and off for 40+ years.

Most yards are working on tight margins and have also experienced increases in costs like the rest of us. So I would anticipate some challenges.

Having said that, the turnout situation would not be for me or my horses so I would be moving.

Sounds awful tbh, I hope you can find somewhere else.

I've been keeping horses on full livery for years, and would not tolerate this management arrangement at all. Even in the worst weather, they need to go out for some fresh air and to stretch their legs. Were you aware of this plan when you went there?

I would be looking to move asap, regardless of you liking the people and facilities. This just is not good for your horse(s).

My daughters horse is on full livery and we have daily turnout majority of the year depending on how wet the fields are, full muck out in the morning and poo picked twice a day. Haylage given 4 times a day if they are in equally space so they are never standing for a long time without something to eat, they also go on the walker twice a day and 2/3 a week they go in a big turnout pen. Fresh shavings twice a week and if you are on basic food I.e pony nuts chaff that's also included. We also have two big indoors and a massive outdoor and also a gallop track and private hacking. They also will school or hack your horse or pony out if you can't get down. Also a water treadmill

This. Each of these things would be a complete and utter deal breaker for me.

But bedding banked with wet means that your horse is breathing in ammonia. Which is proven without a doubt to fuck their lungs up. And they will be
breathing it in 24/7, since it won't have left the stable by bed time, especially in winter.

And god help your horse if they want to lie down, pee or roll in the day time. Y'know. With those copious hours of standing still staring at the same 4 walls that they have day in day not out.

Horses are evolved to travel miles every day. They are not equipped to stand in a cage 23/7 for months at a time.

This would be an absolute no for me, my horses have always been out for a part of the day, every day, regardless of the weather. One yard where there was severe flooding one year the yard owner rotated between non flooded fields, the outdoor arena, a covered barn and the lami pens to make sure all the liveries got at least 3 hours out every day

I’ve got two on full livery at different yards. One is 24/7 turn out all year round but stabled too as and when wanted (cob prefers being out), and includes ridden schooling up to 5 times a week, ad lib hay and bedding, turn out, mucking out etc. Expensive but hacking is fantastic and so are the yard facilities.

The other is a 3rd of the cost of the first. Doesn’t include exercise and all ponies are stabled at some point during the day or night all year around. Mine is lami risk and has some other health issues so this suits him. Plus, yard owner is very careful with fields to ensure they aren’t damaged. Again, ad lib hay and I provide bedding.

I think you're lucky that your horse will even cope with this, without developing vices or becoming unmanagable- mine genuinely wouldn't- he's bad enough when he has to have a few days in due to ice or snow.

In an ideal world, your YO would look at the management of the fields to try and ensure some turnout all year, but they are unlikely to change. I'd be looking at other options. Do you absolutely need full livery, or would part livery or DIY with services work, at least for the winter?

The being in 24/7 is the sort of practice that is not doing the horse world any favours from an ethical viewpoint at all IMO and YOs need to read the room and get with the times. The fact they don't subject their own horses to this way of life speaks volumes. Dependency on frequent lunging in tight circles or on a walker is also questionable for a lot of horses. I wouldn't think it is a sustainably run business tbh if this is the best level of service on offer.

I wouldn't keep a horse that wasn't turned out every winter for months. So bad in every way.
Never mind CDJ chasing a horse with a lunge whip, there are far, far more horses being abused daily by being denied turnout for months on end. It's become normalised but it's not normal.

Yes, I hope it will finally be seen as akin to battery-farmed chickens.

I personally think minimum stable sizes need upping massively as standard practice. Wish the BHS and councils would get onboard with that.