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The tack room

Discuss horse riding and ownership on our Horse forum.

Is it true about Charlotte Dujardin withdrawing from the Olympics?

1000 replies

Freakwave897 · 23/07/2024 16:21

Or is it fake news?

It’s so disappointing if true…

I am a huge fan and can’t quite believe what I am hearing.

OP posts:
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29
Ifailed · 23/07/2024 21:16

This will feed the public’s perception that horses are for rich, spoilt brats and dressage (and horse riding generally) is not a ‘sport’

Well it isn't. I never understood why a competition about human endeavour (the Olympics) included it, why not greyhound racing?

Barbadossunset · 23/07/2024 21:18

Unless as suggested, the person might have been subjected to an NDA?

Would cruelty to a horse not override an NDA?

Freakwave897 · 23/07/2024 21:20

SweetAda · 23/07/2024 20:09

My dd, 11 is very into riding, I know next to nothing. She has read about 1000000 books about dressage and she seems to think that 'Charlotte wouldn't do that' she says the one main terrible thing in dressage is roller and that it is banned.

My own uneducated question: is dressage generally a bit cruel? I don't wish to be offensive.

To answer your question: dressage in French just means training.

And dressage training spans a massively wide spectrum:

For example I use basic dressage very regularly out hacking when I open a gate without dismounting when my horse has to back up and turn slightly and stop. And then go forward and help me close the gate behind me. And when we have to load on to a horse box or turn half circle at the end of a lane.

The aim of training is to be able to manoeuvre a horse easily using minimal aids so basically the horse is controlled , and balanced, and it’s energy is properly harnessed, it is using its body correctly and you are both safe.

The middle and higher level of the sport is to move correctly in three gaits, stop and start and master other movements which are increasingly difficult:

Basic paces - walk, trot and canter.
Halt & rein back.
Circles & serpentines.
Shoulder in, renvers and travers.
Passage & piaffe.
Pirouette - walk & canter.
Half pass and canter zig zag.
Simple, flying & tempi changes.

Some of the most complex . movements such as piaffe are based on the natural movements and short steps a stallion would take when slowing down from a fast pace as he approaches his mares; other movements are based on curves which mimic herding left and right.

Obviously at the very top end of the sport and with the introduction of music freestyle it becomes a cross between an art and a sport.

Is the sport cruel?

The answer is it should not be, there is NO excuse for cruelty in any horse sport, but once riders reach a high professional competitive level, of course huge pressures come to bear on them and their mounts.

Dressage horses at the top end of the sport take approximately 14 years to train properly and are hugely expensive. The horses themselves have to be enormously strong and powerful to withstand the range of movement they are required to perform consistently and repeatedly and therefore they need very skilled riders to contain their strength and energy. (I imagine Allegro for example must have weighed around 650 kilos of pure muscle and bone when he was competing?) and therefore they require very patient and skilled riding.

I am very torn on this one because I think it is good to strive for excellence and correct technique at the top, setting the example for those of us at much lower levels.

At the same time, there have now been a number of high profile incidences of top riders rider using cruel training methods which are completely unacceptable.

What is so very disappointing about this latest incident is that the sport was supposedly improving welfare standards and judging was supposedly changing to take in to account more natural head positions and strict rules have been introduced about blood on flanks or on the bit leading to immediate elimination.

I don’t think I am exaggerating when I say that British dressage may not recover from today’s revelations. And if cruelty is found to be endemic at the top of the sport, it doesn’t deserve to recover frankly.

But it will have a very detrimental effect on all of those children in the pony club learning the dressage basics and trying to perform them well.

Also, if Charlotte is guilty, how “clean” are her competitors here and abroad? How clean is the person accusing her? Why did they wait four years to accuse her? Who else knew in the team hierarchy? Dressage is a small world. Did the judges know? Did her team mates know?

And most important of all, how long have horses been suffering?

OP posts:
Standupcitizen · 23/07/2024 21:24

AvacadoBathroomSuite · 23/07/2024 21:12

That’s shocking, and so sad. How can they not keep their temper?! I guess if you see it a lot and are taught it’s the right way to treat a horse you think it’s normal. Hopefully with more stuff like this coming out people will begin to realise it’s wrong. Animals respond so much better to positive reinforcement than negative.

It's not about anger or frustration in a lot of cases. Whacking a horse with a whip or giving it a good dig with spurs is seen as a good way to make it do as it's told. If a horse is "nappy" - ie doesnt want to leave it's friends, hit it with the whip. If it throws it's head around, jab it in the mouth. If it won't walk while being led, hit it with the lead rope. That'll teach it.

That's the way they were taught, because that's the way their instructors were taught, because that's the way they were taught. And so on.

Standupcitizen · 23/07/2024 21:27

But it will have a very detrimental effect on all of those children in the pony club learning the dressage basics and trying to perform them well.

On the contrary, perhaps it will make parents, pony club leaders and riding teachers think twice about how they teach little children to achieve results.

Freakwave897 · 23/07/2024 21:27

AvacadoBathroomSuite · 23/07/2024 21:03

Within equestrian circles, how common is this? I recall a video from a few years back of a woman smacking her horse - she was a primary school teacher I believe.

I used to ride horses but hated the use of the crop full stop and would never carry one. I do wonder, especially within hunting crowds, if a lot more of this goes on that we know.

The horse world I inhabit is not riddled with it at all. If anything horses are mollycoddled to the extent that they are too fat and under exercised.

OP posts:
Lastqueenofscotland2 · 23/07/2024 21:27

Standupcitizen · 23/07/2024 21:24

It's not about anger or frustration in a lot of cases. Whacking a horse with a whip or giving it a good dig with spurs is seen as a good way to make it do as it's told. If a horse is "nappy" - ie doesnt want to leave it's friends, hit it with the whip. If it throws it's head around, jab it in the mouth. If it won't walk while being led, hit it with the lead rope. That'll teach it.

That's the way they were taught, because that's the way their instructors were taught, because that's the way they were taught. And so on.

Yes this is how a lot of children are taught to ride, smacking desperately school sour and 2/10ths lame ponies. It’s miserable. Most riding schools welfare is shocking, but then perhaps not surprising that these children grow up to be adults that treat horses like that

Freakwave897 · 23/07/2024 21:31

Standupcitizen · 23/07/2024 21:24

It's not about anger or frustration in a lot of cases. Whacking a horse with a whip or giving it a good dig with spurs is seen as a good way to make it do as it's told. If a horse is "nappy" - ie doesnt want to leave it's friends, hit it with the whip. If it throws it's head around, jab it in the mouth. If it won't walk while being led, hit it with the lead rope. That'll teach it.

That's the way they were taught, because that's the way their instructors were taught, because that's the way they were taught. And so on.

Those methods are extremely outdated though.

If people have to hit a horse or yank it in the mouth to get it to behave, then their skill levels are very poor.

A cravache should only be used as an extension of your arm, and to guide, never to smack or hit.

OP posts:
Standupcitizen · 23/07/2024 21:32

Freakwave897 · 23/07/2024 21:31

Those methods are extremely outdated though.

If people have to hit a horse or yank it in the mouth to get it to behave, then their skill levels are very poor.

A cravache should only be used as an extension of your arm, and to guide, never to smack or hit.

Well...i know that. The rest of the industry needs to catch up.

Freakwave897 · 23/07/2024 21:36

Standupcitizen · 23/07/2024 21:27

But it will have a very detrimental effect on all of those children in the pony club learning the dressage basics and trying to perform them well.

On the contrary, perhaps it will make parents, pony club leaders and riding teachers think twice about how they teach little children to achieve results.

Thousands of girls look up to Charlotte Dujardin. Let’s hope they don’t follow her example.

And grass roots dressage clubs are run on a shoestring as it is. If funding is withdrawn from the top of the sport then there won’t be any left to trickle down to the grassroots.

OP posts:
FourLeggedBuckers · 23/07/2024 21:37

There are still a lot of people out there hitting and kicking horses to get them to comply. Growling and snarling at them when they’re reasonably reluctant to do something. I still see kids pony club kicking their way around arenas, and proud parents encouraging them to kick harder.

Some areas of the horse world are becoming better at seeing things more from the horse’s perspective, or at least trying to - there are people in the dressage world who are trying to change things, for sure.

But it’s by no means universal.

HighlandCowbag · 23/07/2024 21:38

I'm in two minds about this..

On one hand I'm like '3 days before the Olympics? Either there was a cruelty case that should have been investigated straight away because otherwise horses have suffered for 4 years?'

And the other is 'yeah, I can see it happening because lots of equestrian sports don't have the horses welfare at heart'.

So we used to show, then I decided the ponies were too fat and slimmed them down to a healthy weight. Now they don't win showing. I love horse racing but know quite a few ex racers that have terrible issues because of racing. Top level show jumpers have an amazing life. Not so.much true of lower levels.

I hope the video is viewed dispassionatly by experts.

We don't do dressage but my one experience with a dressage trainer wasn't positive. Mates pony was stuffy one left rein in canter. This was 3 months post a 6 month lay off for laminitis. Trainers answer was 'go to my car, 3 sets of spurs in a box om backseat..bring me the nasty pair'. I told mate if she gave her the spurs I was no longer her friend. She didn't fortunately, told trainer she would work on fitness first but I was completely turned off.

By contrast we have recently started flirting with endurance as a discipline. So many welfare initiatives!

Freakwave897 · 23/07/2024 21:40

Standupcitizen · 23/07/2024 21:32

Well...i know that. The rest of the industry needs to catch up.

Sorry I didn’t mean to sound as if I was accusing you - and and welfare standards and training are improving all of the time including more elements of behavioural science thankfully.

OP posts:
Freakwave897 · 23/07/2024 21:43

HighlandCowbag · 23/07/2024 21:38

I'm in two minds about this..

On one hand I'm like '3 days before the Olympics? Either there was a cruelty case that should have been investigated straight away because otherwise horses have suffered for 4 years?'

And the other is 'yeah, I can see it happening because lots of equestrian sports don't have the horses welfare at heart'.

So we used to show, then I decided the ponies were too fat and slimmed them down to a healthy weight. Now they don't win showing. I love horse racing but know quite a few ex racers that have terrible issues because of racing. Top level show jumpers have an amazing life. Not so.much true of lower levels.

I hope the video is viewed dispassionatly by experts.

We don't do dressage but my one experience with a dressage trainer wasn't positive. Mates pony was stuffy one left rein in canter. This was 3 months post a 6 month lay off for laminitis. Trainers answer was 'go to my car, 3 sets of spurs in a box om backseat..bring me the nasty pair'. I told mate if she gave her the spurs I was no longer her friend. She didn't fortunately, told trainer she would work on fitness first but I was completely turned off.

By contrast we have recently started flirting with endurance as a discipline. So many welfare initiatives!

Yes if I still had the figure and fitness to compete; endurance riding would be something I would definitely consider. But as I understand it, a lot of the new safety initiatives have arisen out of problematic welfare standards. It’s good they are making such positive strides though.

OP posts:
Standupcitizen · 23/07/2024 21:44

Freakwave897 · 23/07/2024 21:40

Sorry I didn’t mean to sound as if I was accusing you - and and welfare standards and training are improving all of the time including more elements of behavioural science thankfully.

Absolutely - and horse centred training methods are getting ever more popular which is good to see - theres a long way to go but if this controversy makes people think twice about using punishment on their own horses then maybe some good will come of it.

I think British equestrianism will be fine, CD has dominated for a long time and she's very high profile so there will be some damage done but there are plenty of other great riders out there who can hopefully lead the way to a more "horse first" approach.

Serencwtch · 23/07/2024 21:44

The video circulating (no idea if authentic) shows her repeatedly whipping a horse on the legs whilst performing a piaffe. It doesn't look good at all. I think that's what goes on at that level. Grand Prix dressage is not 'clean' from a welfare point of view. I always naively though Dujardin was perhaps different as she comes across as a nice person.

It's also disturbing if rumours are true that it's another national team that have got hold of it & made it public. Likely to take her out of the running at the Olympics rather than because the welfare aspect bothers them.

I think this is likely to signal the end for equestrian sports in the Olympics. The social license to operate has been eroding steadily for some time.

Standupcitizen · 23/07/2024 21:46

Serencwtch · 23/07/2024 21:44

The video circulating (no idea if authentic) shows her repeatedly whipping a horse on the legs whilst performing a piaffe. It doesn't look good at all. I think that's what goes on at that level. Grand Prix dressage is not 'clean' from a welfare point of view. I always naively though Dujardin was perhaps different as she comes across as a nice person.

It's also disturbing if rumours are true that it's another national team that have got hold of it & made it public. Likely to take her out of the running at the Olympics rather than because the welfare aspect bothers them.

I think this is likely to signal the end for equestrian sports in the Olympics. The social license to operate has been eroding steadily for some time.

I read that it was given to a lawyer by the person who arranged the clinic where it happened.

AvacadoBathroomSuite · 23/07/2024 21:48

Serencwtch · 23/07/2024 21:44

The video circulating (no idea if authentic) shows her repeatedly whipping a horse on the legs whilst performing a piaffe. It doesn't look good at all. I think that's what goes on at that level. Grand Prix dressage is not 'clean' from a welfare point of view. I always naively though Dujardin was perhaps different as she comes across as a nice person.

It's also disturbing if rumours are true that it's another national team that have got hold of it & made it public. Likely to take her out of the running at the Olympics rather than because the welfare aspect bothers them.

I think this is likely to signal the end for equestrian sports in the Olympics. The social license to operate has been eroding steadily for some time.

I definitely don’t want to watch that.

Don’t really think it will be the end though? If so many people are aware of what goes on with the treatment of horses yet it continues because those people are still willing to pay, then surely it’s likely this will also blow over? I can’t believe that no one within the Olympic circles weren’t aware of this behaviour if it’s as common as people are saying?

Flowery57 · 23/07/2024 21:54

Apparently she has quite a history of abusing horses … vile person. Now it has been revealed publicly, she is hoping for sympathy. I hope she is never allowed near horses again.

Serencwtch · 23/07/2024 21:56

AvacadoBathroomSuite · 23/07/2024 21:48

I definitely don’t want to watch that.

Don’t really think it will be the end though? If so many people are aware of what goes on with the treatment of horses yet it continues because those people are still willing to pay, then surely it’s likely this will also blow over? I can’t believe that no one within the Olympic circles weren’t aware of this behaviour if it’s as common as people are saying?

There's already a fierce debate about equestrian sports in the Olympics. They have not yet confirmed whether equestrian will be included in LA 2028.

Standupcitizen · 23/07/2024 21:57

Are they still doing showjumping in the modern pentathlon?

Because last Olympics, that was just televised animal abuse.

Freakwave897 · 23/07/2024 22:04

Serencwtch · 23/07/2024 21:44

The video circulating (no idea if authentic) shows her repeatedly whipping a horse on the legs whilst performing a piaffe. It doesn't look good at all. I think that's what goes on at that level. Grand Prix dressage is not 'clean' from a welfare point of view. I always naively though Dujardin was perhaps different as she comes across as a nice person.

It's also disturbing if rumours are true that it's another national team that have got hold of it & made it public. Likely to take her out of the running at the Olympics rather than because the welfare aspect bothers them.

I think this is likely to signal the end for equestrian sports in the Olympics. The social license to operate has been eroding steadily for some time.

Lots of food for thought … .

I’d like to take the positive viewpoint of Standupcitizen
and hope the damage can be minimised but dressage is such a tight knit connected world, I don’t see how CD can go down without bringing the top British riders with her.

Maybe Charlotte Fry can remain aloof?

And if the revelations are malicious and released by a competitor, it’s not fair and there’s still no excusing abuse, but as you say
It shows that horse welfare was not the motivating factor.

I think I agree with you Serencwtch
that the fallout will be extensive and long lasting.

The Netherlands, Germany, Denmark - in particular - might have something to say about it though.

OP posts:
AvacadoBathroomSuite · 23/07/2024 22:06

Serencwtch · 23/07/2024 21:56

There's already a fierce debate about equestrian sports in the Olympics. They have not yet confirmed whether equestrian will be included in LA 2028.

I wasn’t aware of this. Is this because it’s one of the sports that is measured on athletics rather than something unchangeable - is, height, speed etc. as there are a lot of those!

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