‘Hollow’ ‘Avoiding Contact’ ☹️

[Tickytocky]

Low level dressage (Prelim) on cob I’ve had 6 months.
Ive had other issues (behind leg, tranter instead of canter, but we’ve got past those).
All the usual things checked.
I know the judges are right but I’m struggling. Starting to lose heart. I’m not competitive but I do want to improve.
I have weekly lessons with different local instructors who give different advice, which only seems to work briefly in lessons and warm up, but not constantly during tests.

Any advise for me please x

Sadly the thing with cobs is they're not really built to carry a rider in a nice/correct dressage frame, soft and working over the back - their necks are short and naturally often quite tight, and their backs aren't super-strong hence the tendency to hollow, and simply pushing them more forwards tends to result in powering downhill and pulling themselves along using the shoulders where a lot of their power is (rather than in the hindquarters like a warmblood or sports horse type built naturally uphill). The answer most definitely isn't tying their heads down with gadgets or fixing your hands in a tight contact (I mean, that's never a good idea but even more so with a cob), because a lot of them will just tense and tuck up, to the point of actually not being able to breathe if they have a very short gullet...

I think the only answer is lots of steady, correct work and patience. It's hard to advise in isolation without seeing because you do want to encourage push from behind, but not too much to the point where they go off balance and fall onto the forehand, so that's probably why you're getting conflicting advice, one person would say get proper impulsion first and don't worry what the front end is doing but I'm not sure that works well with a cob and a somewhat inexperienced rider (no insult OP, I'd be the same). I find focusing on rhythm, balance and straightness works better, don't let them drop behind the leg but don't push them to the point where they get rushy, tense or unbalanced either. Keep a soft but consistent contact and keep offering opportunities for him to soften and flex (do not hang on his mouth even if he's hollowing). Doing lots of stretchy long and low work is fashionable just now but I always used stretch work with caution, as again, you need to be careful with a cob you're not just encouraging the old forehand drop and rush/plough - i'd do short periods of moderate stretch in the middle of the session as and when he'll offer it, then pick up again as soon as he starts to tip or hollow, and repeat. And just accept it will probably take longer to get to a point of consistent correct work equalling competition success than it will with a horse bred for the job (especially if competition nerves and tension/stress make him worse away from home which is just as much a thing for cobs as it is for more blood types). With mine I never achieved much in the ring but it was good to see progress even if that was from a 50% average to 60% 😂

Mix it up too to keep it fun, most of my cobs have not been naturals over poles (far too unbothered where they put their feet!) but they often enjoy it and doing lots of steady work over slightly raised poles does help them get the hang of working their cores. Don't just go round and round in circles, have a go at some slightly harder moves even if he struggles a bit, do bits and pieces of on and back within the pace, lateral work etc,. Some small jumping (particularly from trot) can be enjoyable and get them using their back ends, do lots of hacking to get him thinking forwards and build fitness (it takes a surprising amount of fitness for a horse to get through even a prelim test working truly correctly, esp if they're working against their natural tendencies). And just generally enjoy the fabulousness that is a good cob and don't worry too much about judges, cobs may not be natural dressage divas but you can't beat for a good all-rounder and friend ❤️

Meant to add also, it might be worth thinking about/working towards moving on from prelims sooner rather than later. It sounds counter-intuitive, but hear me out.

Round my way/in my horsey circle, the done thing is to stick at prelim level (or even intro) for years and years, honing your performance to the point of near-perfection where you're consistently scoring 70%+. It's not uncommon at some of my local venues for prelim to be super-competetive for this reason, classes always full with many lovely warmbloods with beautiful paces to be seen filling the warm-up (and intimidating little old me on my 13.2 coblet 🙈). After much, much work on my little cob mare she would do a sweet, consistent, obedient prelim test with all the moves happening in the right places but I could not for love or money score above 65% - I think with so little else going on in a prelim test the judge has plenty of time to notice and critique all the poor quality paces or incorrect frame moments that are so hard to eliminate with a cob. Even at our very best we stood no chance of winning or even getting a rosette. No shade on the judges btw, the others in the class 100% without doubt were better than us.

So after getting pretty fed up I just gave up and moved up to the novice/ele classes. My instructor was skeptical, and doubtless if my ambition had been to progress up the levels the lack of proper foundation would have scuppered me, but my god was it more fun. Interesting tests with lots going on, no more endless 20m circles, felt like a proper challenge and although 65% was still pretty much our upper threshold (medium trots and canters were a huge struggle for her but her lateral work, counter canter and simple changes were pretty good actually), 65% in a local ele class stood a good chance of getting in the places, where it'd have been nowhere at prelim. I even won a class one glorious day (only two other entrants, one of whom was a young warmblood who lost his mind spooking at the flowerpots midway round and the other had two major rider errors of course but shh, we don't mention that!). If you're finding prelim depressing, why not look up some of the easier novices and start schooling those at home, work towards entering a prelim and novice one day (even if your mediums are as piss poor as mine, at novice it's only 'show some steps' and you can get away with very little if the rest of the test is nice).

Needs to be forward, balanced and straight

Make sure you are really really accurate, with circles and transitions in a test as they're easy marks to throw away (and centre lines too)

It's just patience really and time. I had a wobble and ended up back on the lunge after riding for 25 years. Was barely capable of doing an intro and couldn't ride one side of her at that point. Eventually managed to sort my nerves, find out how to ride a tricky mare that did what she liked and was able to ride at medium but my god it took a while!

I think a lot of it is down to fitness - maxellys advice is (as always) excellent.
Id make sure they were fit and strong and had a varied workload, including hilly hacking and lots of pole work to make sure as much of their anatomy was getting used

Id also not worry too much about where there head is, so many people get so focussed on their horse being “on the bit” but they lack the back and neck muscle to do this properly so they will have their head in the right place but be hollow.

Brilliant replies thanks - for taking the time to give really useful feedback, I really appreciate it !
@maxelly I hadn’t really thought about his confirmation- I’m all about ‘Cobs Can’ but I can see how purpose bred horses do find the movements naturally easier. Their riders come out of the arena cool as a cucumber with 75% plus, when I’m a hot sweaty mess barely scraping a 63%.
I’ve been really surprised how competitive unaffiliated local dressage comps are - and you’re right, prelim seems to have the most in the class, with the tests not very technical so the magnifying glass is on everything !

When I'm working with a cob type i have in, i do so much long and low work, mostly on hacks. i never "just" hack, i school all the time.
6 months is no time, keep at working him correctly at home and it'll come together

Another thing to remember is that you won't ride him as well during a dressage test as you do at home or during a lesson due to nerves - both of you! My dad had an ID mare who everyone said was far too heavy for dressage - she got up to Advanced level!

Really interesting what you said about moving up a level @maxelly . I appreciate it is probably advice to be used with caution, but my daughter and current pony can currently nail a prelim test pretty well, and the score on the day comes down to just whether they had a good day or not (did the pony spook at a falling leaf etc.). But you're right the classes are often huge. And sometimes, the comments from the judges aren't that useful for development - some are great and really constructive, and others just say 'needs more suppleness' and award a low 60s, and really, what horse/pony doesn't need more suppleness unless they're already way beyond a prelim level?

Her coach had said don't get too comfortable doing prelim, you need to be moving up, and I thought this was just after a slightly flukey 'better' day, and there was still a lot of work to do at prelim level really (like you say get consistent 70%+ scores etc.), but actually, I am now thinking about moving DD up to novice quite soon, mostly to get some more constructive feedback, but also to have her thinking 'up' and better and growing, rather than more and more 20m circles as you say.

Her coach did a really fun dressage to music with her the other week and they nailed some really complex stuff, but it was fun and such a lift. Doing the same prelims over and over in massive classes can be a bit of a drain sometimes.

Then I get the fear because I was about to enter her for a combined training comp with a novice dressage test and 70cm jumping. They would nail the jumping anyway, but then I saw the last time the results came out for the same comp, that there were several semi pro eventers there and I thought maybe novice isn't a good idea 😂!

A cob with correct rather than the 'flashy' paces some seem to like can certainly do well if you look at what they are judging on - scale of training will always be in their mind. Good rhythm will go a long way. You might get more helpful comments at affiliated rather than unaffiliated although obviously more expensive. I have absolutely seen riders stay doing prelim for years on the same horse- enjoy the challenge of moving up. A good coach should be giving you the tools for when they aren't there.

More great advice - thanks !

My aim in our first year together was to get consistent 70% unaffiliated at Prelim before trying BD - we are both registered ready 😁

He’s a nice cob and has good rhythm so Scales if Training he should mark well. He’s got a huge overtrack and gets 7.5/8s for his free walk so he is lovely. It’s ‘just’ this contact/hollowness holding us back!
You’ve got me thinking Novice is the way forward !

I enjoyed reading that advice too, thanks @maxelly
I'm doing my second area festival at prelim this summer, and have already booked in a competition to go and get some novice points/qualifying scores. The classes are so big, and now it makes sense! Novice is way more interesting for both me and my horse and I'd like us to be at elementary next year. He's a native x TB but judges seem to like him; not as much as those floaty big warmbloods though. Elementary might be our limit but I'm up for finding out!

Glad to see some thoughts along the same line as my own. Everyone I know is obsessed with prelim. Some have been riding those same tests for years and years. And many instructors seem to be very reticent about pushing their pupils to aim a bit higher. It’s very difficult to be competitive against the warmbloods so I’d rather go and ride a more enjoyable test personally regardless of scores!

I'd say stick with one teacher and practice inbetween. It's not dissimilar to music lessons, you have to find the right teacher for you and that can take time.

I'd entirely agree with the comments about moving up to novice. One fairly major competition we went to the pony was 4th in Prelim but 1st in Novice. He consistently scored higher that year in the "harder" test!

What happens when the instructor rides your cob? Any improvement above what you can do? ie is it the horse or you or both that need work.

Horse is definitely better with the one instructor who has been onboard, but he is a grand prix rider ! This was back in Jan/Feb so wondering if them getting back on might be beneficial at this point ?

When i'm teaching, i actually quite like to ride the horse once a month because i can feel so much more than i can see. Unconventional i guess but always beneficial!

I do prefer teaching horses than people though, i'm not the most patient at teaching people but have all the time in the world to teach a horse 😂

Thought I'd come back to this and report that DD did her first novice last week, and despite having not really practiced, and also being a bit of a moody hormonal teen that day generally, she pulled off saying things she hasn't done before (respectable attempt at medium trot and canter), and scored a bit too shabby 65%, with nothing lower than a 6 and several 7s in there. More importantly, she actually enjoyed it and felt challenged and engaged in the process rather than eye rolling and bored.

Not too dismiss the importance of nailing the basics, but moving up a level, and doing ok, was just the lift she needed to motivate her.

@Deliaskis That’s lovely news ! I am definitely considering moving up a level 😁

I make my living from producing dressage horses and teaching. I'm going to give you the best bit of advice anyone in your position can have. Stop going to the local
Instructors and having lessons. Sadly they just aren't up to scratch. You need to go to a pure dressage trainer that will very quickly sort out the issue you've spoken about and beyond.

Any horse that's sound is capable of working to medium level, cob, warmblood, mule 🤣. I'll also add that if your horse is getting 8 for the walk and over tracking he sounds the right type. My big horse is not conventional at all but he's super trainable and has a huge over track! I'm in Derbyshire but happy to make recommendations if you'd like to say what area you're in. Also doing some writing for judging helps as you can see exactly what the judge is after and what it looks like form their perspective!

How are you getting on @Tickytocky?

I agree with pretty much everything said above!

So many people throw away marks at prelim, eg are your circles accurate, or a big egg shaped? Are your transitions accurate, is he/she listening to you so that you change pace exactly where you mean to/first ask?

I used to compete my little 14.2 coloured cob at UA and dabbled at quest/BD. He actually did very well, a lot of which was because he was reliable/unflappable- eg when the beautiful moving and v impressive looking warmbloods lost their marbles at the flower pots/random shadow in an indoor arena. So we were able to make every mark for accuracy/rhythm count.

I would also third/fourth the comments about moving up a level when you feel he’s going nicely consistently. It is a regret of mine. We had just started doing some novice classes when he injured himself. With hindsight I wish I’d loosened up a bit. He was consistently scoring 70ish and his mediums were pretty crap so I wanted to wait until they were very clear and… well better! But actually they are just one or two movements in a whole test!

When I was struggling managing a toddler and horse, our instructor rode once per week over one winter. It was brilliant and absolutely money well spent. I’m a complete amateur and it really helped him, with me it was a bit ‘blind leading the blind’.

The other thing to touch upon, as was mentioned above, is fitness. Many cobs (mine included!!), are very chilled out, and not naturally very foreword going… the fitter they are the easier they find it and therefore the more willing they are. I started doing a lot of fitness work and got into endurance, and it really helped. I used Equilab to track how much w/t/c I did in every session and it was enlightening! Most people hack and spend 98% of it in walk. Really use your hacking. Ask him to march out. Use lots of transitions up and down the paces. On wider tracks leg yield side to side. Also mix it up to keep it interesting so fast hacks/fun rides/a bit of jumping. Don’t just go in the school and drill them as they switch off.

Good luck and let us know how it goes.