WWYD Big Young Horse

[BigHorseLittleHorse]

NC for this. I have a big Irish Draught - 17.2 when he came to me two years ago - he’s filled out massively.

I have sweated and cried over this wonderful horse - who’s talented, intelligent, genuine and seemed to have a good start with previous owner, who loved him and backed him very kindly.

He struggled SO much to settle with me. Couldn’t stand still, didn’t lie down, constant low level panic and busy brain, constant mouthing etc - ALL of which I have pretty much overcome now. He’s happy, feels right at home and bonded with me and we have come so far.

However, because of his size if he gets anxious, it’s a lot to handle. For example he hates having his feet done. Leans, fidgets (have been through multiple farriers and tried to keep him barefoot but made things worse). He also stopped loading in the trailer. I have been having weekly groundwork lessons and practice sessions so we’re improving but he still panics when he’s in (even before you shut anything). So we can’t go anywhere.

I have also hit a wall with some of our riding. I’ve been having weekly lessons and he’s gone a bit sour in the arena. He has learned that if he stops dead and drops his right shoulder the rider comes off. We always get back on and he’s never nasty about it but getting him forward is even harder when you’re wondering if he’ll slam on the brakes. He loves to jump but got me off twice in one session by stopping after the jump and my confidence was massively knocked.

He’s wonderful but it’s a bit exhausting constantly feeling I’m not enough. I couldn’t sell him but previous owner is still in touch and has hinted at having him back if I ever wanted. I have thought about it but when I do I instantly can’t breathe and start to cry. We have come so far and it’s been really hard work but I love him so much. There’s so much potential if I can just be enough and/or get the right help and experiences for him.

I’m pretty sure any responses will be “FfS get rid” - but does anyone have any words of wisdom or got through dark times feeling they aren’t enough but stuck with it?

I'm sorry that your having a tough time with your boy. He sounds like our gelding who is quite "stressy" for his breed. It sounds like your doing your best for him but wondered if you've not quite found the right trainer . I'm not an advocate of any one method, but I've found that Ryan Rose on YouTube is brilliant. I suppose it's natural horsemanship, he gets results with some very difficult horses. You'll never beat him because of his size so you need to find a way of getting him to make the right choices without a fight. Good luck and don't give up yet, but go right back to basics and forget the jumping for now.

What a wonderful post @Mollyplop999 thank you.

I will look up Ryan now. I am a Warwick Schiller fan and the wrong side of being a bit woo sometimes with mine, which has actually got me through a bad day on many occasions as I’m very connected to them. But interesting what you said about finding the right trainer. My normal instructor adores him but is a “let’s keep asking until they say no” type. My big lad gets overwhelmed and confused very easily and that’s when he stops. So I have started working with another instructor who leans towards tiny incremental steps and having all the right building blocks in place so is less likely to overface him.

She’s riding him for the first time tomorrow so will be interesting to see how he responds!

Sorry if I missed it but how old is he now? Assuming he's 6-7ish, he's still a big baby really and needs to be treated as such. He sounds weak both mentally and physically and a bit as though he doesn't really get what this riding malarkey is all about yet. I know, I know, you'll hear from all and sundry that they should be out doing it all by that age or you'll see friends with different breeds out winning loads with 4/5yos and wonder what you've done wrong, but IMO big horses like this are a whole other kettle of fish and just need a lot more time. What's his ultimate main 'job', are you wanting a showjumper/dressage horse or more of an all-rounder?

If he was mine, I'd forget the arena work entirely for at least the rest of the summer, just lots and lots of hacking, in company ideally, plenty of straight lines and get him really enjoying himself and thinking forward. If you must use the school I'd mainly be on the ground and getting him using himself and building topline and hind quarter strength using raised poles and long lines (careful about too much long and low though as they can tip themselves heavily onto the forehand and then find it hard to learn to go correctly again).

I think at his size he's likely always going to find schoolwork quite hard esp in a small arena and he probably needs little and often on the flatwork and perhaps most of his schooling to be done outside - old-fashioned thought but a season hunting would probably be the very thing to set him up if jumping is the main goal (legally of course, or maybe team chasing or similar with a nice confident but quiet rider would be ideal). Anyway you need to stop with the 'not good enough' thoughts and I think basically he should come good with patience and a set-up to suit him but if you're really after a dressage horse or SJ to move up the levels he might not be that...

His size is something that you seem overly concerned by, are you a good match? Are you close to 6' with long legs? A rough rule of thumb is withers to your chin give or take an inch or two. With the best will in the world, it's far easier to sit on a horse that fits you - if you take your feet out of the stirrups are your feet visible below his belly? If you can't wrap your legs around, it's far more difficult to stay on. And yes, any tiny jockey can ride a big horse, but not as well as a jockey that fits it, and it's infinitely easier to wrap your legs around and stay on for sudden stops/spins/drops etc.

The farrier, loading and ridden issues are nothing to do with his size - tiny ponies can and do exactly the same. From what you saying, right now you're just not a good match - you've had two years to get over his size, how big were the previous horses you rode?

It's quite simple, either you keep him and work at a level that you're both happy with, nothing wrong with being a happy hacker, but it sounds as if you're not even achieving that at the moment. I'm making a massive assumption that it might be your first horse given that things are going backwards and you don't realise that you will get attached to each and every horse that you own at the time.

There's no point in carrying on with him if you're not enjoying him, he will always stop if you ride him wondering if he is going to stop - can you send him away for a few weeks to be schooled by someone else and get lessons on something else to help your confidence and then both of you try again?

I had a similar horse and started to dread riding and handling her but she was the sweetest horse in the entire world.

I owned her from 3 til she was pts at 26 and I sorely regret not getting professional help or sending her away for a while. She had a lovely life but I'd have loved to have been able to do more with her.

If I was in the same scenario now I might sell, she didn't have the right nature for me but could have been fab for someone else.

Is he the horse for you?

Difficult question. If he's not the face facts and sell him on he will be perfect for someone

How old is he? I have 2 IDs and they take a long time to mature physically and mentally. How old was he when he was backed? If he's sour in the school he's trying to tell you something. Do you do lots of hacking, fun rides etc? Or are you always focused on him in the school?

As a side note, I would get him checked for ulcers. My mare's only symptoms were being spooky and she had severe ulcers. I wasn't even going to get her checked as I didn't think she'd have them but was glad I did.

So many helpful replies thank you everyone!

@maxelly you guessed right, he turned 7 in May so still a baby and I am def struggling comparing others and what they’re doing.

His job is just basic RC/happy hacker type so he doesn’t need to set the world on fire but he isn’t in the hands of a competitive rider. He has hunted and team chased but as a 4yo, not with me.

I’m not massively keen on the arena but it has served a very useful purpose in building strength and proprioception for him and also helping his education. I think we might have just hit a bit of a block and need to pivot slightly. Our arena is big but corners are hard for him, as are circles. I’m not keen on sending him away but am going to try a professional schooling him for a bit to help as they’ll be more balanced.

I have also been suspicious of ulcers but after agreeing an approach with my vet every symptom he had previously has now gone. The stopping isn’t that I don’t think but could be finding things hard or being uncomfy.

@BaroldBalonz I’m leggy but 5 7” so no, my legs don’t wrap around him which I can see would make it harder. He was backed by a very petite lady so I have even wondered if he’s still adjusting to my weight and if I’m imbalanced that would likely derail him more.

He’s not my first horse, I have an ex racer who was also a handful to settle and pretty broken but despite being my first, I managed it with the right help and he was a total gem.

Yes I am a bit obsessed with his size, because nobody ever stops mentioning it. I don’t really think of him as that huge when I’m with him. You can lead him out round the lanes in just a headcollar, he’s surprisingly good at poles even though he doesn’t always know where his feet are and I’m way more used to his huge stride. But the size thing crops up with every professional I encounter and it makes it hard to ignore.

We hack every week - he’s had his moments (stopping and going backwards if he gets anxious) but I’ve worked really hard on that and he’s at a point you can go out for an hour or so by yourself and he’s really good. But despite having got so much stronger (physio is really pleased with his progress) he is usually only up for an hour and a half mooch - he does get tired easily.

I’d be getting him checked for ulcers and KS for a start.
If that’s clear, if he’s so school sour he’s decking his jockey in there I’d leave ridden schoolwork and just hack and do groundwork until he’s physically stronger.

Lots of good advice above, but I’d work on yourself to build up your confidence and anxiety, when you say you can’t breathe at the thought of him going back to his previous owner, that’s a tell of your high level on anxiety that will transfer to him.

Get vet checked first.

Depending on where you are based in the country I know someone who does clicker training training and can resolve loading issues, generally within 1 or 2 sessions. It’s amazing to watch it being done. That would only solve your loading though. Although I am aware clicker work can be done to make horses more confident and settled on the ground and translate to more settled ridden work. However I’ve not seen that bit done first hand and it’s a number of sessions needed.
If you want details let me know.

Good luck

@Madeinessex that’s interesting I didn’t know clicker training was used much for loading. I’m working with a trainer on groundwork at the moment with the loading in mind which has definitely helped.

I’m very open to vet intervention - he’s very sensitive and very open about his feelings so effectively shouts at you if something’s uncomfortable until you sort it. I have vet coming end of this month so can ask them.

The dumping of rider is 9 times out of 10 related to canter. He finds it really hard in the arena and will only give it a go on one rein. Which is fine if he just needs time and balance but he does seem to be a bit blocked. I need to get him loading to practise that in open spaces as we have limited canter places at home.

ID owner here. Has he had any breaks? They don’t physically mature until 10.
He sounds exactly like mine, they are big sensitive lumps. People expect them to be like big cobs and they aren’t.
Whats his breeding?

There are some very good ID groups on Facebook with owners who have a wealth of knowledge. Horse and hound forum has some very knowledgeable ID owners as well.

I'd treat for ulcers and feed an ulcer friendly low sugar low starch diet. Give the school a miss for a few months and make the most of the long days with lots of hacking. There is nothing better for gangly youngsters than long slow hacks, preferably with hills and terrain if possible.

You can do a bit of cheeky schooling on your hack, checkout Meg Parkinson Equestrian Coach on Instagram she has a podcast with some really useful audio lessons on focussed hacks.

I would aim to avoid the school entirely until October. Just give him a brain break if he's school sour.

Oh and has he seen a good body worker? My ISH was terrible with her feet and getting her treated by a McTimoney Chiro made a big difference to her ability to balance on three legs for the farrier.

Taking her shoes off helped too, it was nailing on that really upset her and once we stopped doing that she calmed down a lot.

If he struggles barefoot then boots can be the solution, I found my horse was much happier about picking her feet up to have her comfy boots on than to have shoes on.

Thanks so much everyone. I feel like so many totally get what we’re struggling with.

@Express0 I am reading ID threads by the dozen! He is a big sensitive lump - feels everything ten times more than my TB and that’s partly why it’s been tricky finding the right help as I don’t tolerate anyone being too harsh or angry with him.
He’s by Fast Silver. Out of a Clew Bay Bouncer mare.

@JesusMaryAndJosephAndTheWeeDon my instructor is McTimoney and I also have regular vet physio on both my boys. Feel well supported there but he’s definitely weak on his right hind and has a bigger shoulder on the left. So needs work to even him out. I am thinking hacking with a bit of schooling might be the key. I think he’s finding it hard and every week is too much at the moment. I think he also needs a different distribution of work. Because of my job he is busy Friday to Monday and then has 3 days of doing nothing. I think little and often to avoid him feeling overcooked or tired maybe in those consecutive days.
The feet thing is my nemesis. My TB is barefoot and while I’ve never got on top of improving his soles quite enough, he managed with boots. My big lad came to me barefoot, no issues at all and suddenly we had months of consecutive abscesses and bruising that nobody from vets and farriers to equine podiatrists can explain. The minute I (eventually and very reluctantly) shod him he was so much better. I have had bloods and investigations done to see if it was an internal issue but nobody could find anything other than possibly his confirmation but he’d managed that far without shoes so I don’t get it. Even in boots he wasn’t happy. But farrier and I have agreed we’ll try again soon. The two best podiatrists in this area won’t do his feet though as he fidgets and leans. In my experience with a few farriers, they don’t seem to offer the same depth of advice and they manage the feet very differently. But I am definitely going to try.

I should also say bar access to grass, he has a barefoot diet - low starch, low sugar and ad lib quality hay. He is out 24/7 all year round.

BigHorseLittleHorse if you like Warwick you'll like Ryan, very very similar approach. It's about you giving him a choice, but his choice is the more difficult way and your choice is the easier way. You have the right attitude and I'm sure with the right approach you'll sort him. Years ago I had a lovely 16.3 ID mare. I had her from a yearling and sadly she died at 16. She could be the most stubborn madam, I remember my husband having to walk her 9 miles home whilst I followed with the car and trailer because she wouldn't load after a ride out! I wish I'd known then what I know now. I always said that she could make me laugh and swear in equal measure.

Omg 9 miles 🙈🙈
Mine never felt stubborn as such as he’s so genuine and inquisitive. But if he’s not sure or afraid, his instinct is to stop or go backwards and you can’t bully or pressure him to get past it. That just makes him worse. We’ve made huge inroads on that response by building trust and getting him going forward more readily on the ground. But loads more to do.

The abcessing and bruising sounds as though the diet still isn't quite right, and that could also explain some of his behaviour.

If you haven't already I would get him on a really good vitamin and mineral supplement with a probiotic. Forage plus would be my recommendation, it is pricey but you may be able to downgrade when his issues are improved. Also feed salt.

I think grass is likely to be a part of the problem and it would explain the change in feet and behaviour. Could you reduce his grass? Ideally keep him out on a bare ground or a surface with meadow hay (not rye)?

Have a look at "grass affected horses" my podiatrist has had huge success removing grass from her horses.

When you look again at removing the shoes Cavallo boots with EPS 4lb pads are great for rehab, they give so much more comfort and support than normal pads but are too bulky for some more modern boots.

@JesusMaryAndJosephAndTheWeeDon at the height of his feet issues he had no grass, was on a track system and is always fed salt and has been on a balancer from day one. He also has a daily probiotic. He has some grass now but we’ve had no abscesses or bruising since he was shod. Nobody could work out what was going on. I had so much input from feet and nutrition experts 😞

I started with Forage Plus as I know it’s one of the best but he refuses to eat the powder ones so after 18 months of throwing money at it and him not enjoying any of his feeds which was frustrating him, I settled on Equimins pellets. It’s not perfect, but it came out well on some of the comparisons folks have done.

He has two sets of Cavallo boots with pads so I’ll be using those again when I take them off again!

‘Big sensitive lump’ is a very good way to describe this sort of horse. I had an 18hh ID who fitted that description, and did not mature until 10. He was retired by 16. He was clever, difficult, and needed lots of physical and mental support. I only realised how much harder work he was than other horses when I bought my next smaller and easier horse. You’ve really got to want one of these great loveable boneheads. I was into show hunters at the time. Current horse (and all subsequent horses after big horse) is firmly in the 15-16hh bracket, they are so much easier. I realise none of this helps you much with your current issues, but it might help you to know that it’s probably not you, it’s just that these big horses do take more time, have more issues and will always get the ‘omg he’s so big!’ response from people. If you love him, stick with him with realistic goals and understanding that you will work harder for your rewards with him. If you are not sure you want your riding to be harder work than it is for other people, then it might be better to find him a new home and yourself a smaller horse.

@backinthebox this ^

Thank you this is so pragmatic. My horse ownership history has always been harder tbh. I didn’t intend that to be the case this time but here we are. I was doing the yard this morning and he was so sweet and I thought, “Both my horses were hugely unhappy when they came to me and I’ve now got two very happy, content boys. That’s more than many can say with all the physical and anxiety issues they’ve had. Don’t be so hard on yourself and don’t expect perfect.”

So glad I posted, this thread has been so helpful!

@backinthebox out of interest, when you say “he didn’t mature until 10” - what physical or mental signs of maturity weren’t there at 7 but were at 10 for your big lad?