Has anyone else noticed this ? Loan / Share

[hattie43]

Is this a new thing . I've noticed a lot of recent loan / share requests are from owners who expect the loaner to actually train / school / bring back into work the horse they are then expected to pay towards . Isn't this a bit cheeky because if an owner can't ride for whatever reason they would have to pay for someone else to train the horse . Is there a demand to share unrideable horses and ponies . In my day sharers wanted to get on and ride .

Yeah there's a general rise in cheekiness/lack of realism on adverts these days, not just in the horsey community but everywhere. I think social media just makes it way too easy for the fantasists/bored kids/chancers to post up all sorts of nonsense at the click of a button, at least in the old days when you had to slog over to the local tack shop to post an ad in the window people thought twice about silly ads!

And it's not limited to people looking for sharers, you see every kind of conceivable nonsense from people wanting perfect bombproof 5 star 17hh eventers that their 5 year old/nervous granny can also hack out on the A1, LWVTB or very low budget of course, to novice teenagers/mothers of lead rein kiddies looking for free rides on ex racers/fit hunters because they can't be bothered to pay for lessons at a riding school like everyone else, to people putting up GoFundMes to pay for their horse's wardrobe/horsebox/competing expenses, all usually accompanied by some kind of sadface pic or sob story or aggressive 'anti-timewaster' comments of course. Plus you get lots of people trying to flog their dodgy wares, everything from second hand kit that's seen better days to 5 figure horses for sale that are obviously lame/head strapped into the chest in the videos (but of course anyone pointing this out gets called a troll)! And of course the opposite, people wanting stuff advertised at a perfectly fair price given to them for free or even them paid to take it away...

To answer your actual question though, while I agree in 90% of cases the owner is being cheeky/unrealistic and sharers should certainly take this with a pinch of salt, but I do think sometimes people do take that deal, wisely or not, and it can work out OK. My own current boy that I have on full loan I had to bring back into work myself as part of the deal, as he came to me off the back of 6 months in the field, but I did know his owners very well and trusted them to not screw me by whipping the horse back as soon as he was fit, and it went in my favour as I ended up with a very nice horse to ride (far nicer than I could have afforded to buy for myself) for free at the end of the process. Also there are a lot of less experienced or slightly nervous owners on my yard right now who have for one reason or the other ended up a bit over-horsed and some of them have more experienced sharers who even pay a contribution to the livery costs, never mind being paid for their 'work'. I guess you could say they're doing the owner a big favour by bringing their horse on/schooling for them but in this neck of the woods (home counties within commuting distance of London) there's a lot of young-ish good riders who want to do lessons, clinics, competing etc on a nice horse but for whom the cost of buying and keeping a horse in full livery so they can keep working/commuting full time is just prohibitively expensive - a share arrangement can work really well for both parties.

I remember seeing horses advertised for full
loan that needed breaking/schooling as a child (so around the time of the Norman Conquests), that’s nothing new.

Chancers on both sides with sharing is a bit more recent, I frequently see people looking for a sharer (often asking for a significant contribution) for yearlings or out of work older horses.
The flip side I see a lot of people wanting to share a the perfect horse with no financial contribution when they are so novice they can’t tack up or rise to the trot.

I don't think it's particularly got worse. It's always been difficult with sharers. I saw the other side years ago when I was a sharer for a once a week ride. Think unfit pony that needed scrubbing for an hour straight from a very muddy field before you could even think about riding and the owner said 'well if you hacked out every week at a riding school that would cost you x, so I'd like a contribution of x'. She couldn't see the difference between her pony and a fit riding school horse that would be tacked up and waiting when I arrived.

I have a sharer for one of my ex racers and she’s a gem, the responses I got to a detailed advert when I was looking were quite something.

She’s a very easy ride for an experienced balanced rider but she does take her rider literally, so if you’re unbalanced you’ll spend a lot of time going sideways - she just thinks you’re asking her to do that, hang off her mouth, she’ll go backwards - again, she thinks that’s what you want, too much leg - much speed, and so on. She can have a fresh spook but it’s nothing that would bother anyone balanced. So not for a novice but not a complicated ride.
I also can’t have under 16s, yard rule.
Id say 95% of responses were 13 year old girls who’d just about managed to canter a 20m circle on a riding school cob, and about 4.5% were parents of 13 year olds who could just about canter asking if she’d be suitable.
Thankfully my lovely sharer who’s been with me for three years got in touch but there are some
eejits out there.

I love the description of your horse being very literal - it probably is a massive contrast to all the riding school horses that need all requests to be completed using the correct paperwork, submitted in triplicate.

There are Cf on both sides though as a lot of people looking for shares have ridden for a very short time , aren’t particularly competent and are just looking for a cheaper way to ride than lessons but think they are brilliant .

I think there are CFs on both sides too, but I’m not sure it’s anything new. There’s a very long running (like years old) thread on H&H about this very thing.

I’m looking for a sharer for my daughter’s pony. I’ve been very honest - my daughter has some chronic health issues this year so hasn’t been able to ride for months and months (plus she’s hopefully off to uni next September) so pony is unfit and needs bringing back into work, however, she’s a cracking pony, will do anything and jump anything, loves cross country, jumping, beach rides, has hunted, brilliant to compete on, is fab to hack, etc. Can be a bit spooky but nothing a confident rider couldn’t cope with - she very much gets her vibe from her rider, so if the rider is nervous, she’s nervous, if she’s confident with her rider, she’s ace. Perfect for a confident teen who wants to get out and about

I want her to stay at our current yard and DD would like to have the odd bimble on her now and then when she feels up to it, but other than that, crack on.

Can I find anyone? Can I fuck. I’m not asking for any financial contribution, just yard chores on their days. Pony loves being in work, I just want her ridden, she’s wasted at the moment.

Sharing/loaning can be a minefield and there are many owners and would-be loaners and shares with totally unrealistic expectations unfortunately and you just have to wade through the dross to find the right person!!

I responded to an ad many years ago from someone (a very experienced dressage rider temporarily looking for a horse to ride to keep her hand in, as it were) as I have a well schooled pony who does a nice enough test in the right hands. The rider came, rode, decided to take on the share and then proceeded to tell me some horrific tales of would-be sharers who refused to get on their own horses to demonstrate the rideability! She simply walked away. She said it was a relief to turn up somewhere and find a nice, normal, rideable pony who the owner was more than happy to ride herself.

I've also had friends and fellow liveries look for sharers and have total novices turn up who can't even tack up.

It's a tough one!

I am a long term loan or share rider. Have been riding 40 years, never owned a horse.

It is a minefield yes. But I have always been honest about my abilities, what time I can commit. I expect the same in return. It's worked brilliantly over the years. I have 'had' various horses for between 5 and 12 years. Mix of low level competition or happy hacker. I always have a contract and insurance.

I have been offered what are for me very unsuitable horses, which I always refuse. Because they are a huge responsibility.

All my horses have been word of mouth or from a friendly chat with someone at a yard.

Definitely been CFs on both sides forever. When my son was working long hours he was looking for a sharer a couple of days a week including a Saturday. We were also happy, after a trial period, for the sharer to use our trailer to go to shows. But had to be over 16 due to yard rules. Fit, well trained and fun horse but we didn't want a novice rider as small yard so likely to hack alone a lot of the time. We did find the perfect sharer in the end but some of the people who answered the ad! One said she was "prepared to retake on the share" provided we moved him to a yard local to her nearly 40 miles away. And another dad who seemed to think if he phoned me often enough we'd accept his 12yo, straight out of riding school daughter.

When I was in my 20’s I had a very nice talented young mare who I was unable to ride because I had a damaged hip. I didn’t have anyone available to ride her before prospective loaners tried her so they had to be prepared to get on her without seeing her ridden, which ruled her out for a lot of people who enquired. She went to the first person who tried her and stayed with them until she came home to retire.

There are Cf on both sides though - yes, there are!

I’ve had some wonderful sharers, and I hope they have thoroughly enjoyed the time they have spent with my horses. I’ve also had some complete horrors, entitled, incompetent, dangerous in some cases, and mostly completely unaware of their own shortcomings. I was alerted to one sharer falling off and losing one of my horses recently by people texting me to ask me if the missing horse on Facebook was mine! I’ve also found one sharer posting photos on Instagram of me riding in competition but with the heads cropped out of the photo and pretending it was them. One sharer brought her friend to my stables to get her horsey fix because she couldn’t ride her own horse because her yard had strangles. And she couldn’t see what was wrong with that!

For every CF owner there’s a CF sharer. I count my lucky stars I’ve got the lovely sharers I have now, there are a lot of chancers out there.

I can go one better - the sharer that was never asked to share! When we were still on a livery yard there was a 13 year old girl whose father had agreed to buy her a pony. One of her mates, who hung around at the yard as a helper and who couldn't ride, got very excited and talked about how they were going to 'share' this animal. The girl just smiled and ignored friend, probably hoping they would get the hint without a confrontation. They didn't. 'Friend' turned up at the yard in all the gear, bought by their parents, eager to get on their 'share' pony the day it arrived (that they were not paying a penny toward) and was not happy to be told 'no'. After a couple of weeks of being told no, they got their Dad to come up to the yard and scream at this poor girl when her parents were not around and reduce her to tears, because she wasn't letting her friend ride 'their' pony. Thankfully, a few liveries stepped in and told this bullying, entitled wanker and his offspring were to go and her Dad finished the job when he was told what had been going on. I can understand a kid getting carried away and thinking 'what my friend has, I have' but for the parent to be so entitled was quite breathtaking!

I tried to find someone to ride my horse when I was pregnant and it was a nightmare! So many calls from parents saying how talented their kids were and how they did xyz at the riding school.

One girl left the riding school as they 'wouldn't pay her for working with the difficult horses' and she was outstandingly incompetant - I asked her to put the headcollar on, tie up, pick feet out, change rug and put horse in the field - she couldn't do anything, didn't have a clue, and for the finale, opened the field gate wide and just took off the headcollar - I knew the horse would bugger off back to the stable, but she just stood there looking surprised!

It was really difficult to find a decent rider to just rock up and ride. To me, my horse was easy, but a couple of people (after passing my 'handling test' couldn't even get him to walk away from the gate. It is so difficult to explain to people the difference between a riding school horse and a 'normal' one.

It is so difficult to explain to people the difference between a riding school horse and a 'normal' one. Yes, this. Privately owned horses span the whole range from well-schooled competition horse to hairy youngster dragged out of a field. It takes a great deal more skill to be able to recognise which you are being presented with and how to approach it than your average riding school can equip you with.

I’ve had a mother angrily telling me there is something wrong with my horses. Her teenage daughter was initially offered the rider on my then ‘mummy’s safe hack’ and struggled so much with him it was unsafe. She was so upset I offered her the ride instead on my 7yo DD’s new pony. Teenager couldn’t ride one side of this one either. According to the mother my horses were dangerous and needed training properly and her daughter had had loads of lessons at riding school where she was in the top group and could ride all the horses there, even the advanced ones (who were all very well trained. 🙄) I suggested more lessons, and if that was not an option, then the girl would have to stop riding as I was worried she would have an accident. The mother told me if I stopped her from riding then her DD would begin self harming.

Teenager before this took my horse hunting when I’d specifically told her not to. I found out from a photo on Facebook. I told her I was very disappointed at what she had done. The following week all her friends were slagging me off on Facebook telling her ‘the owner probably can’t handle the horse the way you can, babe.’

More recent teenager has been an absolute delight, and I was very sad when she went off to uni. She changed my bitter old hag approach to teenagers 🤣. I’d have her back any day of the week.

I generally try to only get in adult sharers after the 2 lunatic teenagers above, but a recent mature adult sharer has shown me that grown ups can be entitled, dangerous and unaware too. It takes a special skill set to break a bone whilst not even on the horse, trying to remedy some damage that had occurred whilst doing something I’d specifically said ‘don’t do that, it’s dangerous.’ Even whilst the injury was healing she was asking when she could start going competing and hunting, whilst at the same time explaining why she couldn’t do yard duties. First day she got back on, she fell off and lost the horse.

it’s interesting that so many sharers and potential sharers describe owners as utter loons or neglectful old hags, when there is every possibility that the owner is entirely reasonable, it’s just that the sharer does not recognise their own shortcomings. I need sharers, as I keep a small band of high-level competition horses and ponies at home, and to the right people I offer as many opportunities as I can (one young girl has been taking a pony to PC rallies for a while now and I will be taking her competing this year.) But work in always equals reward out!

When I was a kid, half a century ago, I 'borrowed' a few youngsters when my own horse was out of action. This was common, but there was no money involved. It was always a full loan for a specified period of time.

Conversely, when I went to university, I found someone to look after and ride my horse for me. That time, my horse stayed at my own stables (at home) so was available and fit for me to ride in the holidays.

I also lent out on full loan, free of charge, my childhood pony as it needed to be ridden to keep its weight down. Again no money changed hands, but pony did move yards so was costing me nothing.

I think the issues these days is that no one learns to ride properly. Riding schools are largely awful. I am old, and grew up with horses but would go as a teenager once a month or so to my local riding school, yes they had the nose to tail kick alongs, but they also had a few wizzy ex games ponies, some genuinely green horses and a gorgeous retired grade a show jumper.

Most schools I am aware of now have completely overworked, shutdown horses with the odd one that responds to a squeeze rather than a beating and that’s seen as the quirky one when it’s not it’s just better schooled.
I increasingly am aware of horrid instruction as well, there is a real culture of “hit them until they do it” instilled in children when the horse isn’t going straight into trot because it’s bored shitless of going round in circles and is probably doing its 4th hour of work that day.

I appreciate they are hard businesses to keep afloat but the general standard of teaching and welfare makes me wince. I’m not a huge supporter of the racing industry but when I see people slagging of the grand national, that ride in the riding school in my town which works its horses into the ground and there is a lot of “smack them with the stick” / chasing round with schooling whips and I swear they are all 2/10th lame, I do think that they could look a little closer to home.

@Lastqueenofscotland2 I totally agree. When I learned to ride at a riding school 40 years ago we mostly learned out hacking, kids on the lead rein at first, and then skills lessons in the field. There was a mix of horses that were lively, safe and interested as they were out and about a lot. Now schools are so worried all they do is go round in circles on deadened horses but people think they know how to ride. I've been a sharer (see above) after I sold my last horse but when I was trying to sell said horse - a young, hot Arab - I got several mums wanting a happy hacker to share with their child and who got very upset when I said my mare was not suitable. Eventually she went on loan then sale to an experienced endurance home, which was perfect for her.

Whilst I don't disagree with what people are saying about the general tendencies wrt riding schools and how people can be easily misled into overestimating their/their DC's abilities by the fact they're 'in the advanced group'/ride the most difficult RS horses, I just want to do a bit of a public service announcement for anyone lurking or reading this in the future. The fact we like to talk about the poor state of riding schools atm doesn't mean we think all RS riders are total crap, couldn't ride one side of any privately owned horse and would be total CFs if answering any share wanted ad (I know no-one on here means that but some of the posts could be read that way and I would really hate for anyone to misread and think we're sneering).

The fact is that plenty of RS riders know full well they're being limited in their progression by the limitations of the school environment/system, and when they come onto here or H&H or facebook groups asking how they can improve, the answer is nearly always to look for a suitable share. So please, if this is you, don't think that you shouldn't do that or that you'll get laughed out of the yard if you try - it's just very important that you are totally honest about how much riding you have done, be willing to ask for nd accept help and are patient and careful in identifying not only a suitable horse but also the right owner and yard environment for your first time, as PPs have identified when riding at a school you aren't necessarily taught things like how to change rugs or turn out safely, many owners would be happy to show you the ropes but some really don't have the time. It's just a case of matching up expectations appropriately. And you may need some help de-coding adverts or 'horse speak', if so do come on here and ask as people will always help out - for instance at a riding school 'novice' or beginner tends to refer to someone who's only had a few lessons and is literally learning the very basics like how to do rising trot, but in the context of share or sale adverts 'not for novices' will tend to mean this horse is very tricky total nutjob and only for a very brave and experienced rider, but if you don't know the code you could well be forgiven for thinking that if you're happy and secure in all 3 paces on any of the RS horses that makes you 'not a novice' so you might apply for that horse and get a nasty shock. You might well need to be patient in waiting to find the perfect quiet, novice friendly horse, patient owner combo for your very first share but that's OK, it def doesn't mean you shouldn't share at all or there's something wrong with you. There are other things you can do in the meantime to get more 'share ready' like stable management lessons too so don't get put off. Here endeth the PSA, as you were everyone

Oh I’m not sneering I do unfortunately find however, that with very very limited (and expensive!) exception most riding schools are not good and the standard seems to be getting worse, and yes a lot of RS riders (especially teenagers) think that they are advanced, as they are in the advanced group, when in real terms they are very novice.
I sold a mare sometime around the time of Henry VIIIs forth wife, that was safe as houses really, but when really exited (jumping, a good blast hacking in company) would buck, this mare was sold to a novicy but fairly balanced rider and she kept the mare for 23 years until she passed, now a horse that very occasionally bucks is seen as quirky. The general standard of riding has nosedived and everyone is so nervous as they never have sat on an RS horse that does get fizzy or have a moment, so they e not learnt in a controlled environment with a decent instructor how to cope with that. Most of what I see these days is give it two backhanders with the crop and trot a circle.
I think a lot of it is being really realistic about your ability, in my 8295929 years of buying/selling and instructing I often find the worse you say you are the better a rider you actually are!
Shares are a brilliant way to progress from an RS but I think if you’ve only ever ridden in an RS you need to have a serious appraisal of how good you/your DC are. I’m sure the instructor that says your DC is fantastic every Saturday in their 45 min lesson might change their tune if you said you were buying them a jumping pony…

I would also add to any lurkers or their parents, do not be taken advantage of! I have seen some horse owners take terrible advantage of youngsters and work them into the ground for the odd ride. That is not on.

Oh I completely agree with this, while some work for rides agreements are good most are a bit shit. A share with a set amount per day is a far fairer set up. Just make sure youre on the same page about payment if the horse is lame/what happens when you go on holiday etc

I had this years ago before I got my first pony. I was 11/12 years old and used to muck out a girl's horses for her at the weekend in return for an occasional hack with her. She was about 16 and she and her mum would sit by the fire in the farm house drinking tea while I worked outside in the middle of winter. I still remember the bitter cold. Once the mum came out to 'inspect' the stable and shouted at me for it not being immaculate. She grabbed the broom and said it was awful and how would I want to sleep in a dirty bed. The teenager was finally quite ashamed and took me aside to say the mucking out was fine and to ignore her mum. I put up with it because I was a child and was desperate to be around horses. I didn't realise how bullying they were until I was an adult.