Welsh Ds 😭

[Seriou]

Any advice welcome !

Section D x warmblood has been very opinionated and nappy since being broken.
Has been off to professional schoolers twice. Has had all tack fitted & refitted. Has been scoped. Has all usual checks done.
Everyone just says he’s Welsh and what do I expect ? 😭

How old is he, and were you happy with how he was backed? Has he had any time off since being backed, to chill out and process everything. Being sent twice for professional schooling may well have fried his brain a bit if he's only young. I was advised to do nothing for a year with my Dx except hack out and let him see a bit of the world after he'd been backed and ridden away. And he got 3-4 months off in a field chilling out after his backing.

And, yes, some Welsh can be a bit sharp and opinionated but the constant napping sounds like he's trying to tell you something.

Yep, he's Welsh. And warm blood cross too 😱

But backing is backing, it's accepting a rider and learning some basic aids. How much has he done before being backed? Ideally you want to be walking them out in hand from an early age so they can see the world.

If nothing much has been done do lots of groundwork in the school, then lead out on quiet lanes, then ride with someone walking with you etc. There's no real shortcut but he'll come good if you put the time in.

Constant napping is not a breed thing. It’s a communication thing. Same as being ‘opinionated’, horses just communicate how they are feeling through their behaviour. He’s not trying to be ‘naughty’.

He is either in pain and the source of it hasn’t been discovered yet or has a behavioural issue, perhaps from being sent away twice which can be very unsettling for a young horse.
Also, sometimes these professionals can be very heavy handed to achieve results and so he is associating hacking or riding in general as a source of pain and fear.

I would turn him away for the winter if he was mine, let him be a horse with plenty of friend, forage and freedom, work on the ground work, handling and relationship building and then you will be in a better place to bring him on yourself in the spring.

Horses aren't opinionated. If they don't trust the person in charge they will take charge and go to a place they think is safe.

Has kissing spine been ruled out?

Yes he’s had 2 blocks of time off due when we’ve had lockdowns and I wasn’t allowed professional rider on the yard. Both breaks were for 3 to 4 months.
One of the schooling liveries were 2 weeks (cut short due to Covid), and the other 3 months.

He’s amazing hacking in company. He’s amazing jumping at home (1.10). We do join up & parelli in hand. He walks out lovely in hand and now babysits even tho he’s 6. He’s currently out 24/7 and has been since April, always with company. He is allowed to be a horse and chill.

The napping has always been when hacking alone so we’ve basically given that up but is now at competitions - he will nap and rear and won’t start a course so gets immediately eliminated.
We’ve done arena hires and he’ll jump lovely, but take him the week after for a clear round day and it starts, but then he’ll do the next (bigger) class perfect.

I just keep getting told it’s the Welsh in him !

Welsh Ds are not my cup of tea, and they can be sharp (as I’m sure you’re aware!)
Napping hacking alone is fairly common and I’m with you, I’d just not bother. It’s too much like hard work and my hacking is too road based to take that risk.
Competition venues can really overwhelm a horse, is there a trigger, like the bell? Could a set of acoustic ears help, or longer working in if he settles into it later in the day? How often is he going out also?
However you mentioned he reads which is quite an extreme behaviour, has he been scoped and checked for KS?

Never checked for KS specifically but has had two different chiropractors (back men ?), and monthly massages who all say he has no pain in his back area. Did have tight hamstrings but they’ve improved with exercises.
Can it really be pain related when he jumps so well at home, and so well in one class straight after ‘antics’ in another class.

I don’t know what the trigger is at competitions - even quiet venues with hardly anyone there, he can be like this to begin with.

Hmm, when you do the arena hires do you use the courses built exactly as they are for competition with distances and fillers and 'dressing' exactly as it would be 'for real', and do you warm up elsewhere then make him move away from his friends and go in and jump straight away? Would be an interesting experiment to see if you get the same reaction. It might be any one of these things or a combination freaking him out, then once he's had a chance to settle in the ring and realised nothing terrible happens he does better, hence jumping the second class fine.

Also you could see how he is if a pro or instructor rides him in a competition, not saying you're doing anything wrong but it's natural to be more tense than usual going into the ring for a competition with an audience, especially on a horse with a history of playing up, and even if you think you're totally relaxed and riding exactly the same as usual, welshies are often very sensitive and can react quite dramatically to subtle rider anxieties.

If there's def no physical issue I'd put it as a combination of those two things, lack of competition experience on his part and maybe a bit of tension on yours. I'd maybe give him another little maturity break over winter then bring him back with the aim of expanding his horizons, keeping outings low key and positive experiences for you both, like others say I doubt he's doing it on purpose or 'just being a welsh' but he probably needs a bit more confidence (he's only 6 after all, still a baby really) and you need to be able to trust him...

Forget riding for the minute what's he like to handle? Can you lead him through a field of other horses? Is he polite? Can you pick up every hoof with no rudeness? Does he stand to tack up groom etc?

@maxelly at arena hires he jumps the course that’s already out, all fillers etc but maybe not as many flowers. It’s a local professional rider who jumps him not myself and she’s super confident and competes regularly for other people at higher levels. He’s doing all this with her.

@puddlesofmothers he’s like a dog on a rope to handle usually, but can fidget sometimes. I’ve never led him through other horses, but he is always easy to catch and separate from his field companions.

Ok so 5/6 is quite a difficult age for a horse, they usually have been backed just over a year are starting to strengthen think they know it all a bit - think terrible twos. But you say that he's been like this since he was backed? The reason I asked about him
on the ground is I see the kind of behaviours in horses that have had to assume the role of "the leader" but that's a not a great position for a young horse to be in hence the bad behaviour napping etc. But you usually see the same pattern of behaviour on the ground too, like bargy and difficult to handle and rude not just with horses but with people. So there is this thing about the Welsh horses but I think the reason behind this myth is that actually they're a very smart breed and will just say no quicker. My experience is horses will in general fall over themselves to meet you halfway so there's obviously something going on and it's either behavioural or pain. I would next want to rule out pain and this will need to be thorough from foot balance to ulcers to pssm, then tack. Once I'm satisfied that he's ok I would restart him. I'd take him right back to basics and long rein him and really concentrate on the voice aids and building his confidence. Small victories are really important, if he's not in pain your dealing with his confidence so it will take a while to build back up but then it snow balls. I imagine also that your confidence has taken a knock because well is he is going to jump when he goes in the ring? He needs lots of small victories that you make a big fuss over and avoid doing things that cause arguments. Sorry if I've waffled I've tried to be as succinct as I can but it's a big bit fascinating topic.

@puddlesofmothers Thanks for your interesting reply !
He has been nappy since the day I got him as a recently broken 3.5 year old. We took him right back to lunging and longreining due to the napping. He was good in the arena but out of it he actually became horrendous on the long reins - endless napping, rearing and then he started cantering at us. This is with the local professional not me doing it. It was at this point he went away for 3 months to a different professional who specialises in restarting.

He is not a spooky horse - he will lead in company when he fancies it (particularly going home), and gives older horses a lead in heavy traffic.

We don’t really hack out now at all as others on yard don’t hack and I’ve given up trying to get him out alone.
We do ridden lessons and clinics and he’s excellent, maybe a bit looky to begin if it’s somewhere new.
And we’re doing Pirelli and lots of join up work and he’s really a nice horse to have around. I try and keep a balance between lots of chill time in the field but also a varied work life but jumping is what he’s best at, but the nappy behaviour has really ramped up with the professional jumping him, especially to begin with, but like I say, he will then go and jump a double clear at a bigger height straight after. I’ll take him a week later to the same venue, and get the bad behaviour all over again !

We jump him max once a week at home for maybe 30/40 mins with no issues and have him out twice a month including arena hires and just clear round days. We’re keeping the heights low even though he doesn’t actually struggle with the fence heights. It’s like dealing with 2 different horses !

He’s unshod because his feet are like concrete (farrier!), and his scopes are clear.
I don’t know what to do ☹️

So in the school if you were to school and then bring him out would he then go back in? Apart from jumping and hacking does he ever nap? I'm trying to work out of it's a hacking and jumping nap or just a general if I feel like it I will nap. There's so many variables isn't there, as hacking and jumping you could think well maybe he's sore but then sometimes he jumps sometime he doesn't. But then did it rain the night before and the sugars through the roof or are you jumping on a surface etc etc etc.

You say he's been scoped I take it that was for ulcers? I'm like a broken record here but you can't scope for hind gut ulcers only treat them and I've spoken to vets that had no clue they existed. Do you feed before every ride? I give a feed now before riding the stressy horse I'm convinced it helps. I take it he's not girthy?

I don't know how he is with stressy things like flags and walking over tarpaulin on the ground but I'd be interested to see him put under a bit of pressure in the school long reining or lunging over stressy stuff to see if he will nap.

Is he ever footy out hacking out with his mates?

It's quite an extreme reaction form him from the long reining that's a very definite no isn't it? I know he will hack out with his friends and by the sounds of it is sound but there can be the "I'm following my mates on a hack and I'm a bit sore but my friends are going that way so I'm going anyway" the herd instinct kicking in. Lastly will he follow a human out hacking?

Also wanted to add you sound like a very patient and fantastic owner! 3 months is a very long time for a pro to have him what did they say, did you feel him improve? 6 weeks is the longest we've ever had something here for and he wasn't halter broken when he came!

@puddlesofmothers No we can bring him out and go back in - we’ve practiced this at home and in arena hires and no problem.
We jump mainly on surfaces as the ground in too hard at the moment. I can only think of 1 competition on grass but it was a while ago and no napping.

Scoped last year for ulcers, treated and rescoped clear. Always has sucrafate (sp?) 1 hour before going anywhere just in case. Does not get fed hard food before but always has hay in field and stable - I want the sucrafate to stick to his stomach lining not the hard food - would you do it differently? Not girthy.

I’ve had lots of weird stuff in the arena as fillers - he always jumps them never naps. He’ll look at them but it’s never the hard no that we’re seeing when out at a competition.

Out hacking alone, yes he use to follow me when pro rider was on. Sometimes he’d be ahead. Sometimes I’d have to give him a lead, but sometimes it was just a hard no and they got more frequent even tho he had lots of positive experiences and we had lots of small wins.

If you saw him on a good day you’d understand why !

The pro who had him for 3 mths said he’s a very clever horse and to keep his mind busy.
He popped a ditch with him one day, but spent 45 mins the next day and he wouldn’t jump it. He did eventually, then just popped it again the day after - he’s 2 different horses !

Sorry I didn't realise he was on long term sulfracate, you should feed on an empty stomach please ignore my thoughts on that. Usually it would be a months course and rescope?

Grass affected? I know it's controversial but that and feed would be the thing I looked at next.

I was going to ask you about the napping. A confident rider is great but they have to give the horse the space to think and choose and it's like a seesaw. Yes most nappy horses just need a firm rider but you'll know yourself from natural horsemanship join up that it's the suitable pressure release, let them think, body language and timing that make it look like witchcraft 🤣. We can bully a horse through a scary situation but that doesn't help the horse with the next situation to be brave if there's a different jockey on board that isn't as strong.

I had to really think about napping outside of jumping and hacking but yes - he will nap walking around the outside of a dressage arena before a test. He will nap in new areas and won’t go in the corners initially. And he will always stop at the bottom of a box ramp for a few moments and then load perfectly. If anyone dares make him go straight up he will plant or tank off the other way.

He only has half a scoop of no sugar/starch hard food after work to keep him sweet. He looks very well on just ad-lib hay and the minimal grass we’ve got.

And you’re right about the bullying - it just makes him worse anyway !

Further up the thread dominance was mentioned - he has always been boss in every field he’s been in, even as a 3 year old and in very riggy, larger company.

Gosh it does all sound tricky, what does your pro rider say? Is it her that's giving you the 'he's just a welsh' line? Are you/she seeing any progression with her input or is he getting worse? What are your ultimate ambitions/goals with him, does the pro ride him because you're wanting him to go up the levels BS or more to try and get him to the point where he's a nice reliable ride for you?

The more you say the more my instinct is he's hurting somewhere or possibly just very stressed by the memory of previous pain, the reactions sound quite extreme, the fact that sometimes he's good and sometimes he's not doesn't necessarily mean it's just willfulness, maybe once his adrenaline is up it masks the pain more, particularly where it's an exciting situation like jumping at a show so then he goes well, or maybe the pro is a good/firm enough rider that she pushes him through it with enough time and repetition. Getting to the bottom of what it is could be so difficult though as there's many things it could be that won't have shown up on the standard vet checks (KS, hind gut ulcers, PSSM, hocks are just a few) - depending on if you want to go down the expensive diagnostic route with scans and so on a full loss of performance work-up at an equine hospital could be worth pursuing, but then of course it depends on what you'd do if something is found as most of the quicker fix possibilities you've already ruled out, don't know if your insurance would cover spinal surgery for instance? It might be worth considering giving him an extended break and a real good dose of Dr Grass then bring him back and start over again? Maybe with a different pro, one with particular experience with sensitive/stressy types? It's a pity you don't really have hacking buddies as lots of hacking can do a lot of good both to build muscle strength but also get nappy type thinking more forward...

So my first post asked about how he is on the ground and the last paragraph you wrote is what I was looking for - I just didn't phrase it very well. So that riggy/nappy/being the boss situation is familiar to me. I liken it to them being the school bully. So big and strong enough to push the weaker kids about but it's a defence thing. They havent had a strong roll model in the field or were weaned early or a million other reasons so this big bolshy behaviour is total front when actually they're way less confident than the horses or people they're pushing about. In the absence of a strong role model they have to become the boss but that isn't just in the field it's in all areas of their life. In their mind as the stallion of his herd they make all the decisions, "no this hacking on our own isn't safe". Because he's the stallion he can't refer to anyone regarding decisions because as the boss that's weakness. So it's a know all that actually knows nothing but can't admit that or show weakness so he never learns anything - bit dramatic I know but hopefully I'm getting my gist across.

So if this was the case with him my approach would be a couple of things the quickest being to pop him in with my Alfa mare that would have him sorted out in terms of herd behaviour/respect in a week, the last thing this horse needs to be is the boss of any situation. It's stressy (ulcers?) tiring and makes them anxious. But obviously not everyone has one of those knocking about. So the ground work needs to be absolutely spot on. He needs his handler to be a very strong leader so he feels safe enough to hand over the decision making to his rider/handler, then he can build genuine confidence in himself and his person. If this is the case with him this is fixable with very few changes, just consistency.

@puddlesofmothers what a brilliant reply.
I have asked in the past for a nowty mare to be put in the field with him and ‘put him back in place’ but they’re strictly split on sex unfortunately,

Re, Ulcers/behaviour- it’s a bit chicken and egg - everyone assumes ulcers causes behaviour, but I was never convinced in his case. I do think that despite an outward cockiness he does worry internally, I can feel it in his breathing.
Overall he improved over the summer and has jumped some lovely rounds and we felt he was passed this stage, but he’s regressed.

I have started regular parelli but as it’s not me jumping him (and unlikely to ever be given the heights he’s capable of @maxelly - just flat stuff for me !) this isn’t going to help much at competitions- presumably my pro rider will need to do this also ? Plus join up I’m guessing?

Many thanks for these great replies and suggestions everyone - I’m genuinely pulling my hair out with him so I really appreciate you taking the time xx

I'm totally over invested in your horse 🤣 .. !!

I treat ulcers as a symptom of something else going on ie stress, injury, pain etc. You didn't say why he's on long term treatment?

I have to be honest i am 100% not a parelli person. It's easier for me to start a blank canvas than a horse trained with parelli. I do however like their fluidity saddle. You've helped me because when you hear about an owner talking about a problem they're having with their horse it's about asking the right questions. So I said to you what's he like to handle, lead etc but actually the better question is how does he behave in his herd. My question tells me nothing really as my expectations of a horse that's good to handle on the ground could be vastly different to yours, the dominance question someone else asked tells me so much more.

I don't want to come across as a snake oil peddler but providing there's no pain issues I think I could get this horse hacking out alone with confidence and enjoyment. 3 months at the last trainer makes me frustrated for you. In a month if the horse hadn't turned a corner they should have called it a day. I'm
In the Midlands and without wanting to sound dodgy I'd be happy to see if we can help you both and it would be both of you as there's no point in us being able to hack him out alone if you can't! It wouldn't be parelli based though it would be my own brand of intelligent horsemanship, common sense and looking at the individual horse not as a one size fits all. Drop me a message if you want to discuss further or just have a chat about him. Or just keep us updated via the thread. Horses are like crack aren't they, dangerous, addictive but far more expensive! 🤣

You have a tricky situation, a lot of good suggestions and ideas. Just wanted to add I'd consider speaking to richard maxwell about a horse like this.