Mis-sold a pony from a dealer - they are ignoring me

[bettertimesarecomingnow]

I wonder if any wise Mnetters know what to do in this situation.

In October I bought a 13hh 12yo cob for my nine year old daughter. She was advertised as good to do in all ways, safe and sensible.

We went to see her and she did seem great. Had her vetted and no issues so we agreed to to buy her.

At the time the dealer said he had lost her passport and showed me the application for the new one saying it would take a few days to arrive. He would send it on. I haven't bought a horse for years so assumed all was well. No passport has ever arrived for her.

Now the real issue - she is totally unsuitable for a child. My dd cannot lead her, groom her, pic her feet without her kicking, pulling away and running off with her. She is so strong and so fiesty. She will bite or kick when we are in the field. Picking her feet is a no no, or rugging her - anything she does not like she will kick.

My dd and I are so gutted, she can be a lovely pony sometimes and we were so excited to get her. Tacking up sometimes goes ok and we get her out but then she spooks at everything and refuses to budge.

I just don't know what to do. I've been so stupid- I cannot sell her and the dealer says it's not his problem, we tried her and bought her as seen.

What do I do? I told him within the 1st two weeks that she wasn't suitable and got "oh just let her settle and she will be fine."

She is not fine 😢

Hmm I don't know now! Basically this lady rescues horses and has 9 of her own. They follow her around like little dogs! She was talking about mutual trust and getting her to chill. I don't suppose it can hurt to have her come and see.

She's only looking to work on groundwork and our relationship so I can keep her as a companion

We will get something else for dds first pony. I would never trust her I don't think. Maybe a donkey 😂

There's so many people who do it incorrectly though and still claim it's helpful. I've seen too many NH "trainers" chasing horses into exhaustion in the name of join up and claiming its the Best Thing Ever.

Lurker here, vicariously horsey. What on earth is "join up"? And what other things does the so-called trainer do?

I hope you have a good outcome to all this.

Join-up is.....

You have your horse in a round pen. The horse doesn't have a lunge line on so is free to wander about. You get it to trot round you and keep it moving, so it can't rest or graze until it shows signs that it's ready to give up. Licking, chewing, lowering its head, can't remember the others off the top of my head. Using your body language you half turn away from the horse and the idea is that it will follow you.

Wouldn't work with mine as they would be too busy checking out my pockets.

A good trainer will show you how to back your horse up. This means getting it out of your space by lightly touching its chest, while saying 'back up'. Really important for respect and safety. Also, important that the horse lets you pick up all four feet (not at the same time..). Also important for the horse to walk beside you when you lead it, and not storm on ahead like a lunatic, or rip the lead rope out of your hand and bugger off

@TheSilveryPussycat

There's so many people who do it incorrectly though and still claim it's helpful. I've seen too many NH "trainers" chasing horses into exhaustion in the name of join up and claiming its the Best Thing Ever.

Lurker here, vicariously horsey. What on earth is "join up"? And what other things does the so-called trainer do?

I hope you have a good outcome to all this.

Join-up is a training technique pioneered by Monty Roberts and now used by 'horse whisperers' and other natural horsemanship methodologies. The idea is that the trainer mimics the natural behaviours seen in wild horses (usually by the alpha mare) to assert dominance over the horse - join-up specifically entails chasing the horse away from you (usually while they are contained in a round pen or similar but not wearing a bridle or halter or any other gear) and keeping their feet moving until the horse shows submission behaviours (such as licking/chewing and turning in towards you), trying to ape a horse's body language in the positioning of your shoulders, sometimes using aids like a lunge line or similar to help the chasing part - the idea being that once you've asserted yourself as 'herd leader' the horse will trust you and allow you to do things like tack them up, lead them, ride them etc more willingly. Often you will see the end of the 'join up' being the horse following the person around the pen 'like a dog' as OP mentions her natural horsemanship person does. There are loads of videos of people doing this on you-tube if you search and other natural horsemanship type techniques.

The issue that many horsey people have with join-up and other natural horsemanship 'techniques' is multi-faceted really, one simple problem as has been highlighted in this thread, is that many people try to copy these techniques having watched a few youtube videos thinking it's really simple, but to do these things well takes a lot of experience and skill, so beginners can get it badly wrong, at best all they do is chase their horse around tiring it out without achieving anything, but at worst it can actually be quite dangerous, some techniques have you waving frightening objects around at a totally loose horse for instance which can cause horses to freak out and bolt or even become aggressive. On a more sophisticated level, I kind of object to some of the rhetoric that posits than join-up, parelli, natural horsemanship (and sorry to lump them all into one, I know they're not all the same) are 'kinder'/'gentler' than 'traditional' methods when in reality most NH methods are heavily based on dominance and submission behaviours and can play heavily off a horse's fear reactions, yes this may be 'natural' but I'm not sure it's kinder than traditional methods which do the exact same thing - basically to me good horsemanship is good horsemanship whatever you call it!

OP I wish you good luck, do keep your cynical hat on with regard to any trainer, whatever they call themselves, and overall if you've decided to keep her as a companion I don't think you should need to do a whole heap of groundwork with her, lots of turnout and chillout time should help a lot and I wouldn't interrupt that too much by trying to get her to 'work' beyond the bare necessities such as having feet trimmed....

The Monty Roberts approach does work, with unhandled horses it can be easy, the horses will “join up” quickly, those that have been mishandled or abused are going to take longer. You need to do it yourself, a skilled trainer will get the horse going properly, only for it to revert when it gets home.

Join Up is a technique that Monty Roberts would have learned by observing his dad working with horses, whatever he claims now. I have a copy of Horse and Horseman Training by Marvin E Roberts - his dad. It contains a description of how Marvin recommended that people "Hook Up" with horses. Reading it was a revelation. As was the book Horse Whispers and Lies written by Monty's family, some interesting verifiable facts in there...
Anyway, I digress. I have a friend who was an Intelligent Horsemanship recommended associate - Monty's representatives in the UK. She was adamant that Join Up isn't something that you should do often with a horse, maybe twice, three times at the most then move on. That makes sense to me because why send a horse away when they want to be with you? If your training works they will want to be with you. So if you go that route it's probably a good idea to get some sort of accredited professional so you don't get it wrong. I think they usually give the owner a turn at Join Up. (I'm not keen on it but a lot are).

@freshcarnation

A good trainer will show you how to back your horse up. This means getting it out of your space by lightly touching its chest, while saying 'back up'. Really important for respect and safety. Also, important that the horse lets you pick up all four feet (not at the same time..). Also important for the horse to walk beside you when you lead it, and not storm on ahead like a lunatic, or rip the lead rope out of your hand and bugger off

This is exactly what she talked about doing when I met her tonight!

So I think we are on the right track.

There won't be any chasing of dpony believe me!!!!!!

Where in Scotland are you and do you have a picture of this pony? It's sounding very familiar but would be a very small world if was was right in thinking

@bettertimesarecomingnow

There won't be any chasing of dpony believe me!!!!!!

Just be there to watch and speak up if you aren't happy about anything. In Join Up the pony would be chased away and allowed back in when they give strong submission signs (dropping the head, licking and chewing, looking to the inside of the circle). Parelli use heavy metal clips on the lead ropes and when teaching backup from the rope they are taught to use as much pressure as needed to get the pony to go back from the swinging rope. That means that a resistant pony can get a smack around the jaw from the clip, which they would argue is reasonable as a "phase 4" - but it isn't necessary at all or fair. Good luck, you have a lucky pony.

Good luck, I do hope she's a help for you and the pony. Many years ago we bought a cob who was a total nightmare on the ground. I was really scared of handling her as she had a tendency to spin and double barrel with no warning. I enlisted the help of an elderly lady who showed us how to handle her. She was wonderful. Quiet, patient and firm but never nasty. Her lessons have stayed with us.

Many thanks for the explanation. I feel a google session coming on...
Hope it all goes well for you all.

Sorry to hear this - a qualified equine behaviourist is your best route forward (although another vet check will probably be on order too!). I have a contact in Scotland if you are interested and she will know if who to contact if your further afield. It sounds like your pony needs specialist, qualified help. Best of luck.

*you're

My poor boy was from a notorious dodgy dealer. Everyone that met him when I first bought him said the same thing “he’s never seen love before”. Boy, did I love my pony to death. I was a novice, and he scared the shit out of me. He would flinch as sudden moves, bolt and charge about. I was just a kid.

I once had a farrier up who said “oh, it’s that your father’s hunt horse?” No, sir, it’s my first cob 🙈 bless my pony though, he’s the best thing that’s ever happened to me. The best horse I’ve ever sat on. He still has his moments, but from the flighty cob who wouldn’t let me pick his hooves out and bit me so hard it scarred has become such a gentleman. Please, try to get this pony right and then sell her. She’ll possibly repay you (my rescue pony was a mess too- but now he’s the sweetest little chap!!)

Yea I’ve been there, half the ponies I bought were dodgy.

Its it’s a reputable dealer he will take it back, most are not, you can try taking him to court but you bought it “as seen” maybe you win maybe not. I advise sell it for what you can get without emotion and take the loss, there are dealers that will buy anything.

If you’re not experienced do not continue trying let you daughter handle it she will get injured. There are plenty of ponies available “on loan” or “free to a good home”.