Advice please: first vs second pony?

[Deliaskis]

Hi folks, hoping for a bit a advice from those in the know. Just thinking about a pony for DD (10)... when I look at ads many of them seem to state 'ideal first pony' or 'second pony'... often staying they are absolutely NOT a first pony. I find this hard to decipher.

DD has been riding a while, lessons once a week until this time last year then riding at least three times a week since then. We've been loaning 2-3 days a week since the start of lockdown 1, so she is comfortable with the stable management side of things.

She's been out on her loan pony around fun rides, farm rides, showjumping course practice a few times at a bigger equestrian centre, cross country schooling and cross country days out, and scores high 60s in an intro dressage test.

We're looking for something to take her a bit further....a few more competitions now things are opening up, and she really loves cross country.

Am I looking for a first pony or a second pony? It would be her first actual pony and I'm wary of over-horsing her because until literally 2 weeks ago I would have said she gets confidence from her pony rather than other way around, but equally we don't want a kick along, because we could stick with her riding school loan for that. My reason for considering moving out of that arrangement is the freedom and liberty to do what we want when we want to.

Any thoughts?

@ImFree2doasiwant you don't want her to outgrow the pony ability wise after 6 months I’ve never seen anyone outgrow a horse or pony abilitywise in just 6 months. I HAVE seen people (both adults and kids) think they have become a better rider and need a faster/bigger/better jumping/etc pony or horse without having the understanding that if they were a better rider they would get a better tune from their mount. My daughter was told at pony club that she had outgrown her pony abilitywise. She stuck with him, became a better rider, and won the national grassroots title for her sport. On a pony deemed ‘too safe’ by her PC. 🙄 Her PC peers, otoh, are mostly over horsed and struggling with them.

I get what you're saying back (and kudos to your DD for her success), I totally agree that far too many people, especially non horsey parents of ambitious DC essentially think they can shortcut hard work and dedication for their little darlings by buying a really high powered 'competition' pony, which can sometimes backfire (and do have to admit to having the odd case of shaudenfraude myself at particularly egregious examples of the same in my circle of acquaintances)... but I don't think that's what the PP was getting at or implying the OP is trying to do!

I think the consensus on the thread is that you do need to achieve a good match between horse/pony and rider and it is possible (albeit much less common) to under-horse as well as to over-horse. If the OP does err too much on the side of caution and gets a real kickalong ploddy type both the DD and the pony may end up unhappy and frustrated, and although doubtless with determination and good riding she could get said plod around the baby XC or whatever, the whole thing should be enjoyable for both parties, they should feel like a team. I have 100% known ponies that while safe and willing conveyances for small riders, would begrudge every step of canter or have to be pretty much chivvied over even tiny jumps, and while of course the OP needs to prioritise finding something safe, she also doesn't need to go too far the other way, and that's where the difficulty lies. At least I think that's what PP meant, correct me if I'm wrong!

The trouble is that depending on who you ask it could be that their definition of a 'first pony' is a super-slow, super-safe type like I describe above, and one that will happily (but without losing its mind) step up to faster hacks, jumping, PC etc to them is a 'second pony' - whereas to others the latter is a 'first ridden' (a plod being a 'lead-rein') and a 'second ridden' is much sharper/younger/naughtier has a screw loose . There's no universally agreed terminology unfortunately! Plus of course some sellers are more or less unscrupulous and will put whatever they think will sell on an advert with scant regard to the truth. So that's why I guess OP has been well advised to try and not put too much emphasis on the advert wording and read behind the words to what the pony is proven to be successful at/suitable for... but I do sympathise, it's a minefield buying horses at the best of times (so much ££ plus the emotional and time investment) and when it's for your kids its that much worse. But OP you sound very sensible and I'm sure the right pony is out there for you, good luck...

One last word on 'under-horsing' vs 'over-horsing' and why it's particularly important to get the balance right in a kids pony, with a horse for a reasonably confident and competent adult it's fairly easy to 'pep' up even the most lazy ploddy horse if you want to, by giving a bit of extra feed and/or doing lots of exciting fast work (you can't necessarily give them extra scope for jumping really big courses or doing grand prix dressage this way, I'm talking about getting the necessary oomph to do average RC activities). The trouble is when you do this you will nearly always (at least at first) get some additional unwanted bad behaviour as the horse starts to feel more full of beans, whether it's 'yee-hah' bucks or napping or pissing off with no brakes in an open space - as a confident, experienced adult you can safely work through this and also usually can rationalise how much danger you want to put yourself in and take a step back if you need to. With a child (a) they often lack the experience of dealing with this kind of thing to know what to do to correct it, and if it's a small pony you can't hop on yourself to do it for them (b) you don't want to scare them and put them off for life, and as a parent being totally responsible for their safety, frankly I don't want to have to sh*t myself every time they ride either and (c) any amount of hard feed is usually a one-way ticket to laminitis in small ponies. So 3 reasons right there why it's so hard but also so important to try to find the 'unicorn' in a first pony for a novice child, one that is forward and 'peppy' enough naturally for them and the child to enjoy what they're doing but also safe and sane enough to not go over the edge. Of course good riding plays a big part in this too, if they are rough with their hands or naggy with their legs even a saint won't go for them, and it's all a learning process, the better they ride the better the pony will go etc., but I've always been way, way fussier for the kids about finding a pony that feels a good fit right from the off than I am with my own horses where I'm much more prepared to improve an imperfect horse (probably why I've ended up with a collection of totally unsuitable impulse purchased rides for myself but hey ho )

Thanks so much again for thoughts, and @maxelly for capturing I think the essence of what I was trying to say.... I'm not in any way suggesting my DD needs a super competition pony, not at all (I've ignored any ad that has comp stats or the word 'flashy'!). I want something that will help her to grow and develop and potentially they can move through and learn together. But you're quite right about the super narrow line of wanting something forward and fun enough, but also safe and sane. You make a good point about kids ponies versus adults too. My share was really a bit too forward the first couple of times I tried him (and he's massive at 18.1) but I knew I felt safe enough to work with him on it.

The 1st pony vs 2nd pony question was about interpretation of the terminology rather than me saying I think she needed one or the other. I had seen a lot of 1st ponies who then had wording like 'ideal for small child just coming off a lead rein' or 'absolutely super safe bomb proof, very much a kick along, not a fan of jumping'....and neither 'type' seemed quite right, but I was conscious that second ponies could be quite a bit more challenging.

As well as wanting the best for DD and her future pony, my other driver is the very very adamant 'ABSOLUTELY NO TIME WASTERS' on almost every advert....I didn't want to start enquiring about ponies that by their terminology were automatically unsuitable, thus wasting people's time. I would hate to waste anyone's time, but did feel rather like I had no way of knowing if I was wasting anyone's time until I had likely wasted some.

It really is a minefield!

@backinthebox I know what you're saying, I have seen it happen though. Often with children, and a couple of times when they have bought their favourite riding school pony. Not many months down the line the child is ready to progress but is in love with their pony/parents don't want to have to start the search again. Its a shame. I totally agree though, there are plenty of adults and children trying to carry on with horses and ponies that are a step too far for them.

A genuine enquiry wouldn’t be time wasting
It would probably be time wasting to enquire about a 3/4 year old for your DD or insist on 9 viewing and bringing along 30 people each time to then offer them half their asking price.

A time waster is not someone who asks a lot of questions. It is someone who has no intention of buying the pony but spends ages messing the seller around anyway, for various reasons.

When I sold my big horse, I had:

• a couple who insisted I hire a school for them to ride in on a Friday evening, turned up 2 hours late, both rode the horse in the arena for about 45mins each giving each other instruction, then jumped back in their car and drove off without saying anything to me except ‘thanks’ and I never heard from them again.
• the man who came to see my horse and liked him, then insisted I drove the horse to his house so he could see if he fitted in the stable, got his instructor in for a lesson at home on him, took him hacking for 2 hours to see if he was ok to ride at home, and then said ‘actually, I don’t think I can buy a grey horse, it reminds me too much of another grey horse I had who broke his leg and I’d always be worried your horse would break his leg too.’ 🤔
• the side saddle lady, who turned up with her own side saddle for her first ride on him but didn’t know how to put it on because her groom tacks up for her normally. We got the side-saddle on and she perched on him looking terrified, but insisted on coming back for a second ride with all her friends in tow, and wanted to see him on an XC course. So I hired an XC course and drove the horse there. She and all her friends rode him for about 2 hours. She still looked terrified, but her friends all said he looked a bit too steady for her. She asked if I would mind driving him over the following week so she could lead the runners out at her local point to point races to see what he would be like. I said no. If she wanted to do that she could buy him, I had given her 2 days of my time already. So she had her friend offer half the asking price on the grounds that he was overpriced as an eventer. He was advertised as a heavyweight hunter and was extremely successful at that job so not overpriced at all, but she said they would make sure everyone in the market for a good horse would hear he was overpriced as they were ‘personalities.’ 🙄
• the para dressage lady who called several times to ask if he was really big, because she didn’t want a big horse because of her disability but she needed one that looked big in order to be successful at dressage (he was 18hh and 800kg, there was no hiding his big-ness!) She came to see him anyway, and said she’d like him freshly bathed because he would need to look eyecatching for top level para dressage. So I washed him, even though I was 8 months pregnant and it was a bugger of a job.) She arrived, said ‘omg he’s big! Far too big!’ and left without even getting him out of the stable. She came back twice more though, just to see if he still looked as big in the flesh because she couldn’t stop looking at photos of him and thought he would be marvellous for her if he was smaller.

These are all time wasters. The person who actually bought him turned up, rode him for about 40 minutes, had him vetted, and paid cash the same day he had him vetted. Approximately 2hrs of my time taken to secure the sale. Not days. These maniacs were just for one horse. With selling ponies you get people who keep wanting to come back time and time again, and then want to have the pony for a 2 week trial before deciding it’s not right for them and sending them back. In the meantime you lose other buyers and then when the pony comes back to you and you ring the people you turned away they want to know what is wrong with the pony that the other people sent him back, and they sent him back not because there is anything wrong with the pony, it’s just that they are time wasters! This is why people get so cross about it and put it in their adverts. It lets joyriders and other messers-about know that their bollocks won’t be tolerated before they try it on. Sadly it is too much of a thing when it comes to selling horses.

Those are particularly egregious examples of time-wasting Back (you have the patience of a saint, there's no way I would be allowing 1.5 hours riding or XC hire or trials on site for my horses ) and I agree that OP should not be put off from making genuine inquiries but it goes both ways. There are massively unreasonable sellers out there too who deem virtually anything short of buying the horse straight away sight unseen over the phone 'time-wasting'. I and my friends have been variously accused of 'time-wasting' for:

-Wanting to see proper confo shots and videos of the horse, not just it lying down in a field with a rug on
-Not coming to view a horse because it is obviously unsound on (recent) video
-Asking about/wanting to look up a horse (advertised as competition type and with BSJA points) 's affiliated record (and not coming to view when this was denied since there's clearly something to hide)
-Not wanting to ride a horse without seeing the owner/someone else ride it first (owner seemed suspiciously afraid of the horse, later admitted it had bronced her off a few times - why advertise as quiet and suitable for a novice then????)
-Not wanting to ride a horse that was obviously unsound
-Wanting to get a horse (not a cheap purchase either) properly vetted rather than relying on the owner's own vet's records that there was 'nothing wrong with it' (not sure how a vets records can prove a negative, without doing, you know, a vetting!)

I get that for sellers its annoying to 'waste' any amount of time that doesn't result in a purchase, and particularly the last few on the list where they'd had to get the horse ready for viewings, clean it up, be there to supervise etc but all the above certainly didn't justify the tide of abuse and social media/advert site 'Reavertised due to time-wasters!!!!!!' type of response you can get for perfectly sensible behaviour as a buyer.

I do wish people wouldn't put it on their adverts in such an aggressive fashion, it puts me off for one having had all the experiences above, basically I think it's counter-intuitive, it scares off genuine responsible buyers who are going to want to ask lots of questions and view more than once etc who worry that they'll be deemed 'time wasters', whereas the genuine chancers like the ones you encountered won't be put off at all since the value of your time and effort doesn't even enter their heads, they think it's their god given right to do whatever they want with your horse after all, and they'll call anyway... so why bother putting it?

When I'm selling (admittedly haven't for a while) I try to weed out the time wasters beforehand for my own sanity, basically I write very honest open adverts, and won't let them view if they haven't asked lots of sensible questions (e.g. if I've mentioned a medical condition they should always be asking about it and its management etc or I worry they've not read that part and will turn up and go 'oh, it's got sweet itch, there's no way I want that' when it was right there in big letters on the bloody advert ) and wanted to see lots of videos etc first (plus answered my own questions satisfactorily, not that I judge them/their riding but if I'm selling a difficult/quirky horse for instance and they're obviously quite novice I have no hesitation in refusing a viewing as I know it will never work). So basically OP keep on as you are, I think you get a sense for the seller on the phone and if they are brusque with you and don't want to talk about the horse or answer questions you probably have bigger issues than wasting their time anyway!

@maxelly I agree with you - buyers do need to make sure they have satisfied themselves that the horse they are buying is right for them. Whilst buying a pony for my son recently, I was accused of being a time waster for 2 of the 3 I viewed - the first we had vetted and it failed the vetting on lameness. We were told by the seller it was probably footsore as it had last a show that week and only just had the shoe put back on and would be fine within a week. So I asked if I could have a look at it in a week then to check it was sound before buying. I was labelled a time waster. The second one I asked to see it’s passport as the pony seemed a lot older in manner and conformation than it’s advertised age. I was shown a passport for a pony of the age the seller said the pony was, but a different colour and markings. It was clearly a passport for a different pony so I walked away and politely said no thanks, pony not for us, and later saw on social media I’d been accused of joyriding.

Buying and selling horses and ponies is a minefield - you have to tread carefully!

Well, we have a pony .

It wasn't quite what I thought we would get, being younger than I would have been looking for, but DD went to try her last week and we brought her in from the field and groomed, tacked up, schooled her, jumped, hacked, rode across an open field....and they just got along great. She'll be 6 tomorrow so still green in terms of actual schooling (balance, outline etc.) but naturally well carried and very very obliging. Used to living on a farm so doesn't bat an eyelid at loud noises, machinery etc. We brought her home Sunday and each time I have seen DD on her I have just thought....this pair are going to be amazing together.

Thanks for help and advice, I took some of it, not all of it (buying a not quite 6yr old!), but it was really really helpful.

Looking forward to half term fun.

She sounds great! Temperament is as important as age really. My TB was more than a handful all his life

I hope DD continues to get on well.

Congratulations! :-D

Why do we never see ads for third ponies?
😁

Well....I had shut up on this thread as pony bought, but as you were all so helpful, I thought I'd post a little update. The pony we bought, slightly on a whim, that I worried might be too young, has turned out to be MEGA! Absolute best decision ever, not a second of regret.

She's speedy in the school and we're working on that (hardly don't any proper schooling with previous owners at all), but completely loves jumping (like my daughter, don't they all!), and is actually more settled out of doors and away from home than in our indoor. I think this is because she did a lot of out and about with her previous owners, and almost no schooling. Took her to her first showjumping comp last night and got 2x clears one at 50cm and one at 65cm, which as a slight 13hh we were so pleased with for her first time out. There's scope for more if we can work on the flat to improve her balance. DD really really chuffed and adores the pony obviously. Her riding has already matured and she is taking her job of educating her in the school very seriously. The pony is so good natured and tries her best at every single thing, and all the practical stuff, farrier, dentist, loading and travelling, catching etc.... she just a dream.

So a bit of a leap of faith has ended up being just the best decision ever.

Thanks for all your words of wisdom on the original post.

What a lovely update! I’m glad it’s all working out so well

How lovely to read this. Well done on trusting your gut.
We have a 27 year old,a 15 year old and a 7 year old. Guess which one is the most sensible?

Lovely update, well done OP and thanks for coming back to fill us in!