Horses at home/offering livery?

[Ellybellyboo]

DH and I have found a property.

House isn’t all that, needs some work doing to it - nothing major, but not really what we were looking for. I pretty much scrolled past it on the estate agents website, it was DH who read the description properly

It comes with a lot of land, there’s a converted outbuilding with some stables, tack room, etc, a floodlit outdoor school, more outbuildings for storage (or possible conversion at some point) and amazing hacking straight on to a bridleway.

We’ve been to see it and it is lovely, I got all excited but then the sensible head kicked in.

We’ve got 2 horses on livery, 1 is retired and the other is DD’s to ride.

It would be lovely to keep horses at home, but DD loves our current yard, has friends there, always someone to hack out with (neither DH or I ride), she goes off to shows with some of the other girls and stuff like that

We could get a few liveries in (DIY only) I know that one of DD’s friends would jump at the chance and there’s always people looking for livery in that area as the hacking is so brilliant so I think we could fill it, but, I don’t know if I want to

We’ve also got another DD who doesn’t ride - the property is pretty rural and her friends all live in nearby town, although there’s a bus stop nearby with an OK bus service and she’s taking her driving test soon

The house is ‘meh’. Comfortable - kids would still have their own rooms, spare room, living room/dining room/ok kitchen and bathroom, etc, we wouldn’t be moving into anything horrid, but we would primarily be buying it for the land/stables but I’m not sure if it’s the right thing

Ooh that is interesting, not surprised you got a bit excited! I have a bit of a pipe dream of one day keeping my horses at home, but like you also my sensible side baulks a bit - you'd be taking on an awful lot of responsibility and hassle which is currently all taken care of by livery. It would be brilliant to get away from livery yard politics and bitchiness and save the £££, but then as you say you are losing a lot of things that are great about a big yard, the 'community' and people to do things with. Few things to think about -

-When you say 'a lot' of land, how much exactly? In order to properly rest and rotate your fields you'd need more land than you'd think to keep say 5 horses on, particularly if it's on heavy soil or has bad drainage etc. Otherwise you may well end up with trashed fields quite quickly. But then again the more land you have the more maintenance you have to do (see below!)

-Field maintenance is a LOT of work, not just poo picking and weeding and checking/filling water troughs (which hopefully DIY liveries would assist with although you'd have to police this), but harrowing, re-seeding, fence maintenance, water trough maintenance, portioning off fields with electric tape etc etc. Ditto for the school and stables which will also need regular attention and occasional complete replacement. You'd have to have a way to deal with the muck heap too. Do you/DH have the kit, time and expertise to do all this or would you have to pay someone - could quickly add up to quite an expense particularly if one of your liveries is a fence trasher for instance?

-If you charge your liveries you would in effect be running a business and have to pay business rates, insurance etc. This could very quickly wipe out most of your 'profit' from having the liveries. You might possibly be able to get around this exchanging livery for chores around the yard (e.g. poo picking the fields), not sure on the legalities and again, policing to make sure the chores are actually done would be required!

-Being a YO can be a nightmare, managing yard spats and fallouts, dealing with complaints, herd management (X's mare is a bully and kicked Y's gelding, Z won't turn her horses out with her anymore etc etc), ensuring everything is wormed and vaccinated appropriately so as to not compromise everyone else etc. Plus of course what happens when someone stops paying or stops looking after their horse (particularly an issue with DIY). You can probably mitigate this by only taking in trusted people/friends but then again that would make any fallouts or issues much worse...

-Safety would be a concern for me, would your DD be likely to end up riding alone more often, or would you end up having to hang around the yard to supervise?

-Also, what is your current plan when your DD grows up/leaves home for uni or whatever? Is there a risk you'd end up stuck managing the land and liveries but no ridden horses of your own? If your plan would be to mainly have DDs friends as liveries would they all be heading off about the same time leaving you with no liveries or a bunch of horses only ridden in holidays?

Overall for now I've decided own land is not for me and you do sound a bit 'meh' about the rest of the property, but it could be a brilliant opportunity with the right work put into it? Just a case of are you the person to do that work?

Just a case of are you the person to do that work?

That is the million dollar question

Land wise - there’s 12 acres across 3 fields which have been divided up into 1 acre paddocks. There’s an option to buy another 4-8 acres from a neighbour.

There’s 6 stables

I’m not necessarily looking to make a profit from it. I just want it to cover its costs.

We could do some maintenance ourselves, but muck heap removal and big stuff like that we’d have to get someone in. DH runs his own business and I work full time so just wouldn’t have time to do anything major

DD is planning on going to an agricultural college, if she gets in the one she wants she can take her riding horse with her, but we are about 5 years off that at the moment

Livery-wise - we’d have 4 stables spare, so we’d have to have a good think. I have a good friend with a couple of horses, plus DD’s friend from our current yard and her mum have a horse each, but I’ve witnessed too many spats and horrendous behaviour at our current yard so we’d have to be careful.

It’s really only someone for DD to hack with and company for our horses. At our current yard, our 2 are in a paddock together (although they can see other horses) and our retiree gets a bit agitated if left alone when DD takes her pony away to ride. We could just fill it up with more of our own horses

The house is perfectly fine, it could do with some work, but nothing major. If it wasn’t for the land and stables I wouldn’t give it another look

be like a big stone around your neck

I know - sensible me is saying never in a million years

But.....

I’d love to keep our horses at home. Look out of the kitchen window and see them grazing and all those lovely romantic ideas I’ve had ever since viewing the place

How good are you at confrontation? When someone owes you money for their share of the bulk bought feed or hay? If someone doesn’t look after their horse how will you cope? When someone tells you they are short of cash this month will you feel awkward or let them off?

I’m pretty good with stuff like that, I deal with it at work.

At our current yard we don’t do bulk orders, we all order our own individually - I think I’d stick with that

We’d only take on known and trusted people and take references

I made this mistake with the first house with land/stables I bought and never again.

The livery was supposed to help me out with bringing in/turning out but in fact I had to do her horses all the time. She came to the house at all hours including 6am and 11pm and brought various random people with her - one day I found a guy peeing in one of the stables! She had endless complaints and demands, e.g. she wanted a shower and heater in a tiny four horse yard. When she left, she left behind the most horrific deep litter beds, I had to hire two guys and a JCB to clean out the stables.

If you want your horses at home, go for it but it doesn’t sound like this is what your DD would enjoy. It’s a lot of work, from broken fences just as you are leaving for work, to waiting around for hours for the emergency farrier, to struggling to get anyone to remove the muck heap, to having to find cover every time you want to go on holiday, etc. it’s not worth it unless you really want to have the horses at home.

I had my horse at home for a while. Never again.

It's 24/7. You have to have stuff delivered, get rid of the poo...It's so much easier being on a yard - and that's saying something considering the bonkers people you have to put up with there!

that's saying something considering the bonkers people you have to put up with there!

Tell me about it. We’ve got a complete PITA at our yard at the moment.

She’s a complete know-it-all/interferer and she’s totally doing my head in

I like the idea of having them at home, doing our own thing and not having to put up with people like her

But equally I like the community feel of the yard, DD has friends there, etc, etc.

I’ve done a bit of digging and discovered the property has been for sale for 2 years, it’s had some offers but people have pulled out before exchange. Not sure if it’s just cold feet or something that comes up in searches/the legal stuff that’s putting people off.

I don’t love the house enough to deal with the stable/land side of it.

It is not nearly as cost saving as you think it is. Looking after grounds and fencing is inordinately expensive, maintaining arena surfaces is expensive, it’s lonely, there’s no help, going on holiday is a fucking nightmare, if you just have two if one goes to the vets for a week you’ve got one that gets upset.

I keep mine at home but then I'm not very sociable so a yard would drive me nuts. It is a LOT of work and we don't have as much land as you (potentially) have here. Fencing, weed patrol, picking up droppings, and that's just the basics. You can get your muck heap collected by an agricultural contractor but that will cost too.
I have had a pony here on livery once, and I will never have any more. It didn't go horribly wrong but it was a pain having someone else in my space. I have since heard some dreadful tales from friends about liveries who have been absolute nightmares, you would need to have insurance to take liveries and that's not cheap.
It is fab having my ponies at home though, for me. One has Cushings and needs monitoring, so it is lovely to be able to check on him 20 times a day :)
On the whole though, if your daughter is happy at the yard you are on, and it does sound as if she has lots to keep her there, then I would not move them. I think you are hesitating for a reason, you know your heart is not in it.

You could get the nicest liveries in the world and still end up with problems to deal with because horses.

Although it would be DIY, what would you do if there was an emergency e.g. horse broken loose, horse caught in the fenceline, horse ill and in distress, dangerous rubbish dumped on your land?

Obviously, if you're not there, you're not there, but equally it might happen just as you want to go out for work, or while your DDs are home alone.

If it's been for sale for 2 years, then I imagine there's a problem somewhere with the property.

I think it's a nice idea, but your heart really has to be in it.

Others might disagree, but I think you really need to know your stuff to have your horses at home, and even more so to have other people's on your own yard. If you would be managing it, and you work FT off site, I think that would bring even more problems for you. Would the general running of the yard be a partnership with you, DH and DD, or would it be down solely to you?

If you don't have qualifications or a vast amount of knowledge and/or experience of field management, I personally wouldn't go there.

Isn't there some kind of HMRC implication of being a livery, would that make it less viable? Insurance, tax etc? I keep mine at a friends home for a monthly 'donation' towards rates and she doesn't do livery for this reason although I haven't looked into the specifics myself

Not for DIY livery, only if you are providing services.

yes, you would be liable for business rates on any buildings (stables/tack room/WC/storage areas/arenas) that may be used for liveries. You would have to continue to pay this regardless of whether they are used or not. If you then decided to stop doing liveries then it can be quite difficult to get the business rates taken off...

Apologies I was completely wrong. The 2017 re-evaluation of business rates now includes DIY livery as part of the definition of livery business so the OP would be subject to business rate on the stables and arena.

www.saa.gov.uk/wp-content/uploads/2017/04/Riding-Schools-etc_R2017_MPC10.pdf

This isn't all bad. I have my own land for horses, not next to my house, and it was a shock to get used to the maintenance. However, you do get used to it and buy in the kit you need.

I have a very practical husband and would otherwise have to buy in the muscle to do jobs like re roofing a field shelter as I definitely don't have the physical strength needed to lift roof sheets up. In addition my husband recently stripped down our tractor and rebuilt it. I wouldn't have had either the strength or know how to do that. Even he got one of his mates to help him with some lifting. I wouldn't particularly want to rely on contractors because they will always fit in small acreages around bigger jobs.

I only have four acres and we had a livery briefly but it kicked one of mine and so I got a third of my own after that. I am now back down to two and I am about to let a friend graze their horses on it so they can rest their own fields for a month in exchange for providing holiday cover for me.

I work with someone who bought around the same acreage as you. They are not horsey and so let their yard and fields as a whole but did make sure they could still walk their dogs over the land. They enjoy it.