Getting to the end of my tether

[ChiefClerkDrumknott]

Sorry, this is long!
I’m at a loss about how to move forward with my welsh D gelding. I’ve had him since he was 2, he was lovely for the first couple of years, was still entire until he was 3 then cut, then broken at 4. Was babyish but well behaved, willing and listened, fairly sensible for a young horse. Turned away over the winter and brought back in at 5, which is when the problems started.
He literally turned in to a different horse, is very reactive and over the top spooky, jumping at nothing, snorting, planting, trying to shoot off (I know D’s are dramatic, my other horse is half D and I broke him too, but this was something else). I would describe him as a ball of tension, he’d fling his head up, set his neck and feel as though he was about to bolt.
Sent him away to a professional who did a good job but still v tense all the time. For the last 2 years I’ve been taking him out to shows in-hand and he’s now brilliant in the ring in-hand.
His behaviour was slowly chipping away at my confidence and I dreaded riding him because he’d get tense then I’d be tense and it was a vicious circle. As a last resort I put him on Equifeast in May and it really made a difference, for the first time in 3 years I was able to ride without spooking or tension. He was coming along great, having lessons and even took him to a dressage test, until 3 weeks ago.
Took him to a weekend show, somewhere he’s been before, and the old him emerged as soon as we got there. He was so ott that he almost broke my foot leaping away from something and landing on me. I was in tears that evening because it felt as though all my work was for nothing. A friend helped me lunge him and he was a little better, but the tension was still there. I was going to take him in a novice ridden class but couldn’t due to his behaviour. He was good as usual in the in-hands.
Since then the old him is back. He’s decided one side of the school is terrifying and won’t go near it, despite being fine all summer. I think the bushes there are starting to lose their leaves and he can see through them a bit, but the over-reaction to this is very hard to cope with.
Last night I thought I’d long rein him around the school, something he normally enjoys, to get him used to the scary side without too much pressure. It was a complete disaster. He was tense and jogging, I asked him to walk and he swung his bum in towards the school, so I tapped him with the whip to move him over (he’s well used to this). He hunched his back and went to kick out so I tapped him again to walk on and he exploded, went sideways and managed to get away from me (never done this before) then proceeded to trot/canter around the school with the reins trailing behind. It was awful, I felt sick watching him. How he didn’t rip his mouth open or fall over I’ll never know. I managed to catch him eventually but he is now convinced the school is terrifying.
I’ve lost all confidence tbh and I’ve been in tears over this. He’s been so good over the summer and now we’re back to not even square one, we’re back beyond that. I feel awful as it’s partly my fault for not being confident enough to deal with this behaviour and I will admit I didn’t handle things very well last night. Part of me wants to sell him to someone who can deal with him. I’m only not at the moment as a couple of people have offered to help me. I’m at a loss as to how to move forward with him. It was going so well and now my confidence is rock bottom again
He’s had back/teeth etc checked, no problems btw.

Love Ben Hart I've been to a couple of his F2F workshops.

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I’ll have a look at that

Loved the videos so much I got in touch with Ben about running a training course here in Portugal

All schools have a scary side if you are welsh. It's a thing.

Could be the grass, his age, his time off.

My little A is sometimes like this. I lunge him on a tight circle and make him go past the scary side. Lots of transitions and keeping him listening to me. They soon learn that looking at stuff and then spooking can either get them out of work or you stop asking them to go past whatever it is.

I know Welshies always have a side lol. He’s never been allowed to not go past the scary side just because he’s spooked. He hasn’t had time off this summer and he was perfectly fine with it for most of the season. Lunging doesn’t seem to make the blindest bit off difference at the moment. It’s such a dramatic change from the occasional spook to tense, snorting, planting terror that it’s completely bizarre

I wonder then if something is hurting? Or something did hurt and he remembers.

My friends cob was push button. Had a really bad lami attack due to an abscess. After a year off she refused to canter on the left rein. The lami was worse on the left hind. We finally decided she was remembering the pain. Solved it by not asking for canter in the school, just out hacking then doing circles out hacking

Or a severe case of the kevins. With a welshie the kevins can be hard. I would work him hard, in hand, on the lunge, and longreining in the school. If he is still hacking out OK school on hacks. If he's a nobber out hacking see if you can get someone to ride and lead from a nanny pony. The thing with kevins is they do pass. And if you work through them however you can they pass quicker.

I would be tempted to do some horse agility/desensitization work with him. Set up some handy pony stuff. Google for pole/grid work type stuff. Keep him thinking and he won't have time to spook. Even walk/trot dressage tests on the lunge/long reins are good.

Thanks Frouby
It’s really hard to tell with him if there’s pain as he’s such an alpha that he disguises it to the last second! But remembered pain may be something as he had an injury (from another horse) that caused him to be stiff as a board on the left rein. This is still his ‘bad’ rein.
Tbh he’s had his teeth/feet/back etc checked in the past and his extremes are still extreme no matter what. He does not keep shoes on at all, despite my best efforts, so has to be barefoot but that shouldn’t matter in the school. I can contact the back lady (whom I trust completely) to come see him again to make sure.
I ride and lead him from my other horse and he’d walk all day like that. I swear I could take him hunting being lead like that and he’d be good as gold. Maybe I’ll get a friend to ride my other horse and lead me (I would swallow my pride if it worked lol!)
I’ve been doing some basic groundwork, mostly leading, with him and he’s calmed down a bit in hand at least. I’ve realised he’s been leading me rather than the other way around so at the moment I’m working on getting his attention when I’m interacting with him, rather than him making the choice when and how he does that

Could you try riding him and leading your other horse maybe? Or hack out at the side of your horse and squash him a bit with your other one?

And with regards to him being an alpha horse, don't listen to him! He can alpha all he wants in the field but once caught he isn't in charge.

My mare is the field gaffer. Absolutely 100% in charge. She decides where the herd is, hunts out new grazing, trashes fencing and teaches them to go through. She decides if there is danger or not, and will round the herd up and move them. In 30 years I have never seen a pony exhibit such strong leadership behaviour as her. Shes a highland that spent her first 2 years up a Scottish hill that's probably a mountain to us.

But once she is caught she is polite and respectful. She was a bit rude, bargy and opinionated initially. Lots of firm, consistent handling. Moving her around the stable, leading nicely, grooming and pampering, moving back out of the doorway for feed buckets etc. Really basic stuff but done the same way, day in, day out. I can move her around with my voice or a fingertip. We have backed her this summer and not put a foot wrong.

And although she is in charge in the field, I am in charge anywhere else. You need to tackle that issue first. I suspect the spooking is more avoidance and him not bothering to listen to you. It can be with my little welshy. He gets 1 chance, then sent on verbally, then sent on with the lunge whip if he is still being a nobber. I only usually have to growl tho now.

Gosh this sounds so familiar. My mum's welshies ds are exactly like this to the point the younger one spooked and she fell off and broke several bones. He also thinks leaves are very scary things. He's had his nose shoved into all the scary things being walked including portapottys so he knows it's a not so scary thing. I think it's just a trait they have

Just sounds like a typical overbred late-cut section D to me.

They're sharp, sensitive and a complete PITA. Just sell it or turn it away and get something that makes you smile instead.

Welsh boys are obnoxious. I had a D as my pony trial event pony and he was such an arrogant prick. Meant we were fantastic at dressage and he could jump like no other, but the only time he was lovey Davey was when he was ill. We had to build stallion fencing as he would jump out and go off doing his own thing. Literally objected to being told what to do by fences.

Because I was a small girl, he would take over. It would lead to him broncing and spinning, planting. He bucked off my trainer when she tried to school him out of it, and she was a professional event rider. He would also get increasingly bolshy on the ground. Basically, about every 6-8 weeks, my trainer’s husband, a 6 footer pro eventer too, would get on and smack him when he bucked and would smack into the way he span. Likewise, on the ground, when he was getting unbearable, my trainer would come and growl at him and smack him and he would behave again. Eventually she would just have to growl and he’d stop whatever he was doing.

I eventually got bigger and tougher and got the best of him. He got sold onto a boy who clicked with him instantly.

Basically, it sounds like you have a personality clash. Either you need to get more dominant or he probably needs to go to someone else. Welsh d boys are no nonsense toughies.

Btw, I’d do none of the above with my sensitive warm blood mare. She cannot be dominated at all. She can’t bear to be told off and needs a quiet, gentle empathetic ride and you need to keep her thinking yet not overwhelm her - everything must build very carefully (my Welsh d you just threw him in at the deep end and challenged him. This was why he could produce advanced medium moves, won loads of money bsja and he could jump round intermediate BE fences, although I only competed him at novice. He was still a masssive prick though!). My ISH mare is much more direct and simple, but again hates being wrong (but then she rarely is!) and again is a no stick/no spurs kind of horse; she gets frazzled with flatwork so you have to ask very simple questions with very clear but non-dominant instructions.

Tl:dr - horses have personalities and you need to be able to ride the personality; you have a dominant pony, he needs you to be tough and in charge; if this doesn’t suit the kind of rider you are, then he’s like a great boyfriend on paper (good looking, charming, intelligent) but you are just incompatible as a relationship.

Aww poor welshies getting a bashing. They can be incredible little horses given the right homes and owners. My little gelding was late cut. He was shown inhand on the county circuit by his breeder until he was 3. Then I bought him as a 4 year old and he was my 7 year old dds pony. He knew his job in the ring and looked after her beautifully. She was very nervous and he just took charge.

But he choses people. If he doesn't like or trust you he will be a complete tit. His breeder is my yard owner and he hates her. She can't catch him, can't trim him, can't load him. He stands going to sleep for me to titivate, loads himself and comes to call.

They are suspicious, intelligent, very loving when they pick their person. My boy isn't dominant at all, but my mates cob used to be. Until my highland arrived and went top dog. And mates cobs behaviour has also improved.

The thing with any horse, and especially native ponies or other intelligent breeds, is you can either bully and dominate or make friends but have firm boundaries. Firm boundaries work. If you bully them (and it's usually people who are nervous that bully) eventually the wheels come off and you end up with huge problems.

14h of welsh cob suddenly realising it's bigger and stronger than you and doesn't actually like you very much is not going to end well.

Given everything you say I think he’s in pain, although it won’t necessarily be easy to find what it is. It has taken me years to find the cause of the physical pain in some of my horses.

As an example I had an extremely talented young WB, very forward going, very keen to work, but always tight on the right rein and not improving as fast as you would think given the work he was doing. Turned out he had severe OCD. Now you might think, i’m a numpty and didn’t réalisé but this horse had qualified for the nationals in dressage and had been seen by top judges and trainers, no one had noticed a problem. Three vets were watching him trot up and no one could see the lameness until he was nerve blocked - that’s what it’s like with bilateral hind lameness.

I am not suggesting your horse has OCD, this is just one case. But I have had a bombproof cob become spooky because he had aggravated an old ligament injury, a competition horse refuse to work in an outline because the bridle touched a sharp tooth, a lovely youngster turn into a nappy horror because of EPSM (took 7 years to diagnose that one!) and others.

If I were you I would get a very experienced horse vet to give him a full work up. Look for lameness, back issues, etc. He had stiffness which screams hock problems and foot issues which scream pain so that gives you a lot to start with. If he is in pain no amount of online courses will sort him out.

Er.... frouby, I don’t think we’d have achieved everything we did if my pony didn’t get on with me or If i was nervous of him... pony trials, bsja winnings, advanced medium dressage? He needed the challenge and he loved to show off, but he also needed clear boundaries and he would push way beyond what most would bother to do - e.g. jumping out because he disliked being told what to do by fences.

I thought he was awesome and we had so much fun together. He was such a show off that we did dressage to music displays at shows and were paid to do it. He loved the applause and would be at his arrogant best. but it was like hanging out with the cool boy who would climb on the roof of the house at parties just to show off. Always challenging, always high energy, always looking to have fun and make trouble. Totally different to my current rides.

You work with what you’ve got. I’ve ridden all sorts and you have to work out the horse in front of you. I’m never scared of a horse, just interested in working out what makes them tick.

Sorry Nags I didn't mean your welshie getting a bashing, I meant in general they can be misunderstood that leads to them either ruling the roost or becoming unmanageable/dangerous.

Am prettt sure your boy likes you. You cannot bully a welsh pony. They might occasionally need a short, sharp shock of a lunge whip up their arse, or a competent rider using a crop in an appropriate manner. But mostly they need firm boundaries and confident but kind owners.

Boobs He hasn’t got foot issues as such, he just won’t keep shoes on, pulls them off no matter what the farrier has tried and despite over reach boots. He doesn’t overreach otherwise, doesn’t have any injuries from doing that. There is definitely a possibility his old injury is still causing him pain, although it’s only showing on one side of the school which is puzzling. I think it was caused by a kick to the leg by another horse. I have the vet coming on Tuesday so will speak to them about pain possibilities and get them to look him over. I have also messaged my back lady to come look at him again. Out of interest, how did you figure out your horse had OCD? What signs were there?

It could be boundary pushing due to dominance. He’s not bargy or pushy on the ground. What I mean by him leading me is he’s not paying attention to me, rather too busy looking at other things or looking for grass. But he doesn’t pull me around or barge me.

I have thought several times that we could just have a personality clash. I’ve had this before when I used to a ride a couple of TBxID’s. Full brothers, one I could pretty much think about a movement and he would do it, the other I just couldn’t get a tune out of. I just want to explore as much as I can before selling, such as pain etc. If I knew someone who’d suit him and wanted him I probably would sell him tbh

It was a tiny thing. His patella started locking. As he walked out of the stable in the morning his hind would get stuck straight for a second. The vet said it was nothing, just rest and see. Then a couple of more vets had a look and couldn’t figure it out so we went to a specialist ortho vet. A lameness workup did not show anything so they nerve blocked him on the off chance...came up 4/5 lame. Everyone was shocked.

He was operated on, came back to work and a year later he became stiff to the right again. This time I knew what I was feeling, within weeks the stifle was locking again.

That’s interesting, thanks for sharing that

Trust me, this is a D thing. There are SO many like this. They're the neurotic border collies of the horse world.

I know they’re generally high strung drama queens lol! My other horse is half D and he has that streak in him. It’s the sudden change of behaviour, after being relatively well behaved, that’s thrown me so much

Don't know what you mean about section D's - mine is as quiet as a lamb...

😂 I like how the other horses all look like they’re thinking ffs