What to expect cubbing?

[Thisnicknameisnotallowed]

I've never been and heard it's more sedate. Is there usually less/no jumping? I want to take my youngster but have never been.

Also does it matter if you don't wear tweed but wear black instead?

Thanks.

[TooMuchCantBreath]

Christ, what do you think cubbing is?

I'm intrigued to know how you know about all hunts and all the people who talk about them though?

[TooMuchCantBreath]

Chili, tbh that is pretty disgusting and says a lot about their attitude (both your friends and the pack they hunt with). Sadly you do get people who have that attitude and it stinks imo. A lot of time goes into finding like minded people in this just like many other things in life. Personally I couldn't spend time with people who behaved like that so I don't, I sought out a group who want the freedom and speed not the kill. Round here there are several packs and they cover a broad spectrum of attitudes. To the best of my knowledge all of them can and will call their pack off though. (Tbtotallyh I've only seen it in action with three of our local packs though as it's not been needed when I've tried out the others)

[chiliplant]

She was a very good friend at school who always rode horses but took up hunting about eight years ago. She was setting up a business and needed t network..she has never been moraly against it. We used t jokingly debate it at school but now we don't talk about it as I don't want t not like her!!
She also said that when farmers don't want the hunt on there land they are sent hate mail and boycotted.

I'm from the countryside so its not a town/countryside argument exactly.

[frostyfingers]

I would like to think they're winding you up Chili, but that sounds appalling. I've hunted with quite a few packs around the country and never come across that attitude thankfully. Everyone here spends a lot of time reminding followers that we cross land only due to the generosity of farmers and landowners. We lost a fair number of days last year as it was so wet and it would have damaged the ground if we'd gone on it - nobody minded, it's just one of those things. We are also aware of whose land we can not cross, and steer well clear - there's absolutely no point in aggravating anybody, it achieves nothing.

As for calling them off, to date where I hunt this has not been necessary as we follow a trail and have not deviated on to a fox (and you can tell the difference as the hounds make a different noise). A huntsman could and should be able to call them off anything/anywhere - going towards a road or rail line for instance.

Christ - your sweeping statement assumes that all hunts trespass and wreak havoc, that's not true. Accidents happen, but if every hunt did what you suggest then pretty soon they would no longer exist as they wouldn't be wanted anywhere. By the way it's no longer called cubbing which you'd know if you'd read the thread, it's called autumn hunting/autumn trailing (tis here anyway), and after the Opening Meet just "hunting". Did you see my comment about people being followed home, staked out and followed again? If I should turn up at your house balaclava clad and hang around then track your car out would you be ok with that? It's what some people who hunt have to put up with - imagine you are off for your round of golf/game of tennis/shopping/swimming whatever and you are pursued and chased all the time whilst you are doing it by people shouting and screaming abuse at you.

That is an epic post, apologies, but I do get fed up with the same old stories being trotted out, time after time - if you don't like hunting, fine, but at least update your information before you start spouting off.

[backinthebox]

The thing is, as in all walks of life, there are extremes of opinion. Most people can be for or against hunting and treat it in an adult way in the same way that some people feel strongly about whether a bacon butty tastes better with tomato ketchup or brown sauce - you can disagree but it's not worth getting aggressive over.

A good example of this is ohmychrist's accusations. In one swoop she has labelled ALL people who hunt as disgusting, psychopathic, trespassing liars. Which is very extreme.

As for calling hounds off a fox - of course they can do it. A good huntsman should hold his hounds by what they call the 'golden thread,' i.e. an invisible bond between man and hound. I have seen hounds called back many a time. Obviously accidents do happen, but the only time I have ever seen a huntsman fail to call his hounds back in time was when they were returning to the horse boxes at the end of the day and a group of sabs well-known for their aggressive behaviour and violent, often law-breaking tactics somehow managed to chase a fox out from behind a rhododendron bush by the side of the road straight into the jaws of the oncoming pack of hounds. Was this a coincidence, an accident? Or was it something far more sinister, and was the fact that they had a camcorder trained on the whole event lucky or planned? Who knows?

You won't find a normal hunting person who condones deliberate breaking of the law, or trespass, or aggressive behaviour. I've hunted with 9 different packs in my life and the majority of people are just enjoying a day out in the countryside on their horses (or in their car) with their friends. I have come across unsavoury hunting characters, but they are the kind of people who would make unsavoury characters whatever they were doing in life, and most people give them a wide berth.

The fact remains that since the law has changed most hunting folk have adapted to the new laws with good grace. Any friction between them and antis comes about because even when everything hunters do is within the law, we are still harassed and pursued by those who feel the need to 'police' a legal activity that the police are content is being done within the law. We actually find that if the police are sent out to a major meet, such as the opening meet or Boxing Day, they thoroughly enjoy themselves as the atmosphere is good, every (except the scowling sabs) is happy, and no laws are being broken - they are generally there to make sure the sabs don't spoil it for the rest of us.

Of course, everything I have written above - a reasoned post by a responsible, law-abiding hunter, will be ignored by those who disagree! So ignorant are many of them (and willing to believe anything they are told by the likes of LACS) that they are only able to reply in short bursts of aggressive accusations. Even my bloodhound following friends have had confused people wind their windows down and shout 'disgusting scum!' at them when bloodhounds have never, at any time, hunted anything but a person jogging.

[TooMuchCantBreath]

Chili I think you've been wound up tbh. Certainly no farmers I know would put up with that. They're a tight group, any sniff of bad behaviour would result in all the farmers withdrawing permission in support. I can't imagine any hunt being that stupid.

[chiliplant]

So OK, question; if they don't call the hounds off and the fox is ripped apart would u say that was cruel??
I get quite confused with the this of fox hunters..

And sorry for the terminology; I get confused with all the rebranding you have t do t try and make it acceptable t the public.. Like not wearing red coats.

[backinthebox]

This scientific paper, written by vets before the hunting ban and endorsed by 540 members of the Royal College of Veterinary College, is probably the best answer to your question, chiliplant.

A Veterinary Opinion on Hunting with Hounds

[chiliplant]

Hmmmm. It saysvthat animals in slaughterhouses don't show distress.. What a load of rubbish.
Why are they bred and encouraged through man made sets if hunters are worried about them beings pests.
So you don't think the fox suffers then. Fine. Strange way t enjoy your time.

[TooMuchCantBreath]

Who doesn't wear red coats?

Yes I believe it is cruel. I didn't hunt at all before the change in the law although I was part of the same community I am now so had plenty of contact.

Your mask seems to have slipped though chili, I thought you were talking from the pov of personally knowing people who behaved like that?

[backinthebox]

What on earth are you on about chili? I can honestly say I have never come across anyone breeding foxes, and I've been hunting for 34 years. The only fox I have ever seen possibly released for the purpose of hunting was released by sabs so that they could film a kill. I am typing here from the pov of someone who hunts a lot, who has friends who are hunt followers and hunt masters, and I've offered a scientific paper endorsed by the RCVS in reply to questions.

I've also worked in an abattoir and sent animals I have raised myself to an abattoir, fwiw. The animals show distress at their handling - calmly handled animals behave calmly, animals herded around aggressively by staff working to a deadline show stress - which is why my family chose smaller independent abattoirs to send our livestock to. Independents will set aside a time slot for you to take just your animals, no one else's there and they are gently and discretely slaughtered - I think the meat tastes better for it as stress hormones are less likely to be released in a calm animal, and it is more respectful to animal to give it a calm and quick death - something not many people consider when they buy their cheap Danish bacon. Now you've got me on my meat production soapbox!

Toomuchcantbreathe, many hunts don't wear red - but they have never worn red. The hunt I am currently with wear a black coat with the hunt emblem on the collar, my previous hunt wears a yellow coat, others I know of wear bottle green or burgundy. Most still wear red though. Red is only correct for certain members of the field, at certain times of the year, which is why you see many people wear black, navy or tweed.

[TooMuchCantBreath]

I'm aware of the traditions of colour, I'm just intrigued by these people who have stopped wearing red as part of a re brand - because clearly hunts are stupid enough to think it was the coats that offended the general public. .. either that or chili is talking out of his/her hat

[chiliplant]

What mask! I do know ppl who hunt and I read that many hunts don't wear red anymore in house n hound (flicking through it getting angry) I do know however that different hunts wear different colours etc.
I believe in peacefully demonstrating and I don't go hunt stabbing as I don't likehow upset it gets me and I don't want t see a kill...or anything close.
There has been convictions of hunters commuting violence against protesters like Otis ferry for instance!

[ThatBloodyWoman]

I think that the hunters will never admit their dirty secrets, but I've seen them.
Yes -since the ban.

Some of us antis are right where you wouln't expect us.

[TooMuchCantBreath]

I think that the sad fact is no one can ever hear the truth when they are convinced someone is going to lie. That's not a dig or saying you are wrong about everyone it's a simple fact. I can only comment on my personal experience. I can't say that no one behaves as you say because I don't know everyone. I can only say that I've not seen it. I've seen bad behaviour from sabs - but not on the levels that have been reported so, again, I can only comment on my experience. I don't think there is a way to cross the divide on this subject, which I find a bit sad personally. I've spoken openly and honestly here about my experience, I don't expect that to cure all ills of course but I don't see a reason why it can't be taken in the spirit it's meant tbh.

[backinthebox]

Likewise there have been convictions of hunt saboteurs committing violence against hunters. As I said above - there are extreme behaviours on both side, any sensible person will realise that. In the same way you believe in peacefully demonstrating, chiliplant, the vast majority of hunters believe in abiding by the law of this country and following a pre-laid trail.

Btw, did you really mean 'hunt stabbing?' Members of my hunt and neighbouring hunts have in the past been pulled from their horses by sabs, had their ribs broken, had wire strung between trees at neck height, been beaten with a piece of wood, been harassed by microlight pilots but not stabbed yet. There is always a first time, I suppose.

And ThatBloodyWoman has just proved my earlier statement that the more extreme the anti, the less likely they are to have anything of substance to debate and the more likely they are to just pop up out of nowhere with a little aggressive but pointless tripe.

[backinthebox]

The thing is TooMuch, there is nowhere else that I can think of in British life that it would be acceptable for masked vigilantes to police people taking part in a legal activity. If there is any illegal action, let the police and the law deal with it. While certain groups continue to carry out unnecessary harassment there will always be friction.

How do you think it would look if, suspecting people were speeding down your road, you decided you were going to throw a box of nails into the road to stop the speeders, because you don't think the police are doing enough? You are indiscriminate in your actions because the majority of people are driving within the speed limit but it is a worthwhile and acceptable action because they are driving on the same bit of road as the speeders and you suspect that even if they aren't speeding right now, and you have never seen them speed, they might intend to do it secretly. It just wouldn't be socially acceptable behaviour. Yet somehow it is acceptable in some people's eyes to act in really rather unpleasant ways towards people doing nothing wrong, because they thing you might be doing something wrong.

Until that stops, there WILL be a divide.

[chiliplant]

No I meant hunt stabbing. It auto corrected me. The hunt sabbers I know don't behave in that way, they film what they can so they can share it with the police.
I can understand it must be a fantastic feeling t gallop through the countryside but I hate animal cruelty even if its tradition.
T hat vets report still disturbs me...

[frostyfingers]

Where's the cruelty Chili? Time and again we've said that due to the law change it's trail hunting - a trail, usually a smelly rag, laid by someone on foot/quadbike/horse. So you say that the hunt sabbers you know don't behave that way - so why don't you accept that not all people who go hunting are cruel, behave badly, or whatever it was you said? As Back very eloquently pointed out there are sections in every society, group, organisation who do not behave as they should - a sad fact of life.

I don't disagree with your right to disagree/protest/complain - what I do object to is those sabbers who pursue people, trespass, harass, shout obscenities, and physically intimidate those who are undertaking a legal activity. (I do not condone any hunting person who does that either btw).

Where did this come from? "Why are they bred and encouraged through man made sets if hunters are worried about them beings pests." Foxes are not bred, they manage that themselves very successfully which is why they were hunted and are now shot, trapped or poisoned.

[Eve]

I do find it amusing when the local bloodhounds pack has the hunt sabs out to police their activities.