Potential new horse failed vetting

[Bonnefoi]

Thought we had found a nice natured family horse. Bit young, but sensible type. Had it vetted and failed. 1-2 after flex test and uneven behind lunged on hard service. Apparently shod badly behind. Vet suggests letting sellers have it shod properly and re-vetting in a couple of weeks, or walking away. Also commented thought it seemed a bit green for what we are looking for (not much clue about lunging??).

Head says walk away, heart says there?s something about it that?s worth a second chance. The how green is too green is freaking me out a bit, to be honest. Sigh.

Hmm, I'm a bit wary of flexion tests on the whole tbh. Have seen many horses fail them to go on to lead full lives with no issues whatsoever. Also, if he isn't sure about lunging, i'm not convinced how well they can judge soundness on the lunge! Shoeing could account for uneveness.
How old is the horse and how much experience do you have? What do you want him for and what type is he?

Would be the third horse we would have had in the family between DH and self. I'm a happy hacker type rider, dh is a more educated rider and and has done low level dressage/one day eventing in his time. Horse would be "mine" but with an experienced pairs of hands available for guidance, if you see what I mean.

I was really more looking for an eight year old, this one is a six ISH MW who done a bit of hunting but not much else.

I hear what you are saying about the flexion test but it feels like a decision I'd made about choosing the right horse has now has an awful lot of ifs attached to it.

Whinge, whinge, etc.

Would agree with horseygeorgie about flexion tests.
Green wise, I reckon you just have to go with gut feeling. Sounds like your DH knows enough to deal with problems. I bought a 5yr old ID when I was 18, she'd been backed, had a foal and that was about it. I was only experienced with easy horses. But I kind of knew she was the one and felt really safe on her.
She's now 24, gave me massive confidence jumping in her younger years and has been my horse of a lifetime.

Wouldn't worry too much about the green factor, between you i think you sound as if you would manage fine. Plus it is such an individual thing to each horse, i have known 4 year olds i would put my Granny on and 20 year olds i wouldn't sit on for love nor money! Whatever your feelings about hunting one way or another, it is a fantastic way to educate a horse and show it things! A bit of hunting has probably done far more for his education than being kept in a school for 2 years and never shown anything. As for the not being sure of lunging thing, whoever backed him obviously didn't like lunging! Not something i would worry over, i would far prefer a baby doesn't lunge than spend every day going round in circles on immature joints.

You really are going to have to go with gut instinct i think here! Nothing flags up serious 'do not buy!' points to me, but if something is niggling enough to give you serious doubts then maybe he is not the horse for you.
'Bout as clear as mud - sorry!

Flexion tests are increasingly called into question tbh and even vets are getting a bit wary of them. Vetting is a totally sensible idea and you sound as if you have enough help/experience to cope with a sensible but green horse. Vets are honour bound to point out the negative points at a vetting too and there is no such thing as the perfect horse though if you feel there could be a serious problem just walk away. FWIW my youngster was a bit too poor to complete his full 5 stage vetting and I had his bloods done because I was concerned that his poor condition was the result of something sinister - it wasn't - he was just a growing lad having gone through a terrible winter (frequently minus 10-15 and him a part bred arab living out unrugged). I had a few worries about his potential but he had such a sensible nature and bearing in mind that any of them can go lame/sick at any time I thought it worth a punt. Why don't you try a re-shoe and re-try and if you still have concerns then, I would walk away. For most riders at a reasonable level of work/ambition many many imperfections are manageable/fixable though that doesn't mean I think you should buy a lame horse! It's quite important to like the horse you are going to fork out for.

Is there any chance you could have it on trial for a couple of months? That way you could give it a proper chance, and have some time to make a more informed decision?

That's a great idea if the vendor is happy and in the current climate they should at least consider it.

You could always ask that xrays are taken of the offending legs? Would give you better piece of mind. I'd be amazed if either of mine passed a vetting!!! I know a horse who sailed her vetting two years ago, 2 months with new owner, on and off lameness and was put down a couple of months back with navicular. They're only a reflection of that day. Interesting about his comments. Those I would possibly pay more attention too!!

My mare failed her flexion test on her off-fore when she was 4 years old. This came as a complete shock to both me and her sellers - over here the SELLER pays for the vetting! (discourages fibs I suppose).

I ummed and aahed and the great Internet seemed divided. Some people said "not on your nelly" - others were more pragmatic and said "it's a bloody flexion test, and you're not going to be going around Badminton".

As it transpired, she has had lameness - and now, after 8 fucking years I've finally had a diagnosis. Nothing at all wrong with her physically (as in muscles/skeleton) - she has 'bridle lameness' and walked sideways like a crab. 6 weeks on from the diagnosis my absolutely awesome riding instructor has taught me how to fix this and we shall soon be entering a competition! :)

As far as the shoes go - how about getting in an equine podiatrist to have a look? Vets know a LOT Of things, but when it comes to hooves I trust the opinion of the EP!

As an aside, I had one of the best vets in the country look at her summer 2007 (?), he wanted to fire her tendons... so glad I didn't go down that route when all it's taken is some intensive schooling/dressage - which of course was originally developed as physiotherapy for nags!

Oh dear, I'm cluster-posting.

Tbh, comments about lungeing wouldn't bother me one iota - lungeing is (imo) only a small tool and it doesn't take much work to train - and it's not as if you buy a horse to lunge it.

Young and green is one thing - but I'd be looking for a happy, easy-going, malleable attitude - e.g., when it sees a tractor does it go in to total meltdown or bimble on past? Will it back up when you place your hand on its chest rather than having to push, push, push? If you're planning on going hunting, does it seem the type to lose control if another passes? Is it going to kick out? Will it load?

That's what I mean. Was it just the lunging which was green or were there other behaviours etc during the vetting which made the vet question the horses suitability? They see horses day in and day out, they good from bad, kind from nasty. Good luck!

Wow, what a great response. Thank you.

What I really like is the horse?s general attitude. There is just something about it.

In terms of green, to give you an example, it would mildly mess about standing still at mounting block, stopped when checked. Though on the second viewing the woman showing the horse produced pasture mix magically from pocket by way of motivation to stand.

More experienced DH view of this is, it's probably trainable, but could be a pain in the @rse. Stables view ? it?s an Irish horse, they tend not to use mounting block. I'm more inclined to agree with DH. I had Irish hunter before (slightly older) and could climb on from anything, including gates if the need arose, she would happily stand still.

By way of a stupid example about attitude, first viewing, when person showing got on, horse stepped over little step ladder thing they were using as mounting block and knocked it over. Reaction to this was very laid back, no jumping or spooking, snorting - which would have been justified for many. Just kind of look at it as if to say "oh, didn't know that was there". Then stood still when mounting stepladder repositioned and stood still for the woman to get on, and trundle off quite happily when asked.

On second viewing, there was a competition on at the place where the horse was being sold. Lots of horses coming and going, show jumping, hooter going off, etc. We walked and trotted passed the main school where the jumping was going on, horses coming and going, quad bike with leveller on the back rattling and bouncing across yard; horse didn't bat an eyelid. We took it around the lorry park. Trailers and cars coming and going, horses tied to horse boxes, horse lorrys parked, ramps being lowered, cars towing trailers starting up and leaving, etc. Didn't bat an eyelid at this either. We did this three times with three different riders: person showing, me, DH. Only point that horse quibbled was when third rider set off. Little bit of stepping to one side then the other when setting off, DH asked horse to go forwards, slighter stronger leg aids - and horse move forward and didn't quibble again. Moved in a direction away from the stables and other horse without any hesitation and going back in the direction of stables stayed at same speed, no getting faster or flustered.

However, and this is where the vet said the horse seemed green (a part from lunging), for the vet horse was very quiet to handle in stable, and willing to have feet picked up and was the same for me when I tried, but after being ridden and trotted up, etc the vet tried to pick its feet up again to look at shoeing, and it messed around quite a lot, got a bit stressed, in his words. But vet said, to be fair, that there was a pony in a field nearby charging around by way of distraction and upset. And if it doesn't know much about lunging, this may have also unsettled it.

Sorry this is turning into a bit of an essay.

Last night I was determined I was going to walk away, then I spoke to DH and he confused me. He said I looked very comfortable when riding this particular horse, and that the horse reminded him of my old horse in terms of movement, way I rode it and attitude. I agree with this, and I think that's why I have such a "thing" for this particular horse. But I?m not sure if being like my old horse is the best motivation for being hung up on a horse.

I'm considering waiting until the horse is re-shod and then setting the vet out again.

I wouldn't worry too much about the greenness you refer to - sure you'll be able to work on this.

If this had happened to me I'd a) get them to reshoe it properly and b) get him re-vetted by a different vet.

When we bought Sec B first vet failed him but we knew the pony well enough not to worry. We got second opinion and the other vet passed without an issue.

Which leg was he lame on after flexions? Both hinds each one in turn after the flexion? Which leg was he lame on lunging on the hard, inside or outside hind? Did he swap to being lame on the other one on the other rein?

Personally I would take the flexion tests (if performed by a specialist equine vet) seriously and the lunging on the hard very seriously. A green horse may be a bit tentative about lunging and appear tense with a short stride but it won't be lame behind because it is green. Lameness on the hard in a circle could be a variety of nasties, especially in a horse so young and you wouldn't even know where to start x-raying without more investigations.

I wouldn't buy him if he didn't pass the vet and I would get the same vet to see again as he knows what he saw first time.

It was lame on the off hind wonders if I'm getting this the right way around or back, right leg and unsound when lunged on the right rein.

I always thought the near leg is the horse's left and the off leg is the horse's right so I think that's the right way round! :)

OK so he was only lame on one hind, the off hind, and it was worse when the right hind was on the inside of the circle. I am not a vet but I would not put that down to shoeing. Poor shoeing might make him short striding on both legs but lame one one would suggest a problem with that leg. Worse after flexion (which flexion do you know?) and worse on circle on hard would on a hunch suggest a tendon problem, although it would be interesting to see which flexion he failed on. A bit odd that the vet suggested re-shoeing, but what do I know?!! Hope the vet is right and he passed with flying colours the second time!

A short stride on the inside when lungeing could just be uneven muscle. It's much "easier" for the horse to hop along on the inside hind if there's irregularity in muscle tone. Takes far more energy to carry the weight properly if it's even. Muscle tone is something you can work on and if the horse is young and as yet under-worked you can't really expect it to be perfect. What's the canter like under saddle? Does he strike off evenly on each side on the correct rein?

Another indicator of poor muscle distribution on the lunge in combination with a short stride would be e.g., on left rein, nose is hanging to the right rather than him curved around the bend. That's a fairly big ask for a green horse.

I would have thought a vet would notice the difference between shirt stride and lameness though? I would agree with booboo

horseylady - yep i used to think that. Unfortunatly years of experience have taught me otherwise. You get brilliant vets and not so brilliant vets, also they are just human so make mistakes. If you trust you vet, fair enough, but flexion tests are not just viewed with suspicion on this forum.

I'm not a believer in flexion tests however they come up lame not short strided. I think I'd be lame holding my leg and then being asked to run straight off!! I was just saying the horse has been classed lame not short strided. There is a difference. I would re shoe, try again and remember the vetting is only worth that days observations. They find some problems and some potential problems. I'd go with gut instinct if you think yes then buy him now don't bother with the second opinion. If it'll play on your mind redo it and re evaluate.

It's a worry though, isn't?

The horse passed a full vetting in March (seen the certificate) as the dealer was quick to point out. Problem is a lot can happen in a few weeks.

A lot of people wouldn't have bothered with the vetting now on that basis (I know my friend has just bought one with a certificate from march). It could be a shoe issue more likely bruising or it could be something more sinister. There is no harm in taking xrays of the foot and hock just to check for navicular (foot) or a joint issue in the hock. That would show up anything major but you've really got to want the horse to go down that route.

I don't see how a bruised sole would become worse with flexion, but then again I don't mistrust flexion tests. Personally I have only had good diagnostic experiences with flexion tests.

Bonnefoi I think you were 100% right to get another vetting. First of all a lot can happen in 2-3 months and while, for example, a tendon injury is not the end of the world who wants to pay full price for a horse that starts its new relationship with you with a few months of box rest? I would also worry about any vetting done by the seller's vet, especially where the seller is a dealer.