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Original poster

Legalities of putting DD's pony on loan.

31 replies

Callisto · 08/02/2012 08:21

Hi all,

I'm picking DD's new pony up on Saturday and I also have someone coming out to look at her lead rein pony with a veiw to loaning him for her son. If it works and they like him she will be keeping pony on a livery yard about 40mins away.

Now I've never loaned a pony/horse either way before so have no experience of the legalities of it all, but I have heard some horror stories of horses being sold by the loaner and the owner only finding out months later. Pony is tiny and feisty and I can imagine that in the wrong hands he could quite quickly end up at a sales and then en route to France. How can I make as sure as can be that this doesn't happen?

OP posts:
Olderyetwilder · 08/02/2012 08:58

Put a loan agreement in place (BHS website has a good template) and stay in touch regularly. Be very fussy about asking questions, make it clear that you'll have the pony back at short notice if it goes wrong, and trust your instincts.

Disclaimer: I've never parted with one, old pony's on part loan, but at our yard. We did have him on loan for a year before we bought him though and it worked well.

MitchieInge · 08/02/2012 11:19

would you be allowed to keep the passport? Probably not?

microchipping?

Original poster
Callisto · 08/02/2012 11:58

Thanks Older, will have a look at the BHS website.

Unfortunately keeping him at the yard is not an option. I have considered microchipping (both my greyhounds are chipped) but it only works if the vet scans the pony/dog. I've never actually seen a vet scan a pony or horse to see if they are chipped - is it only done at a vetting?

I also considered freeze marking but don't know costs or timescale. I think I will keep the passport to start with. Do you know if a photocopy of the passport would be enough at competitions etc?

OP posts:
MitchieInge · 08/02/2012 12:56

I don't know, they need to be with the horse really don't they - at the premises and when vet sees them for vacs and stuff.

Thought I might be clutching at straws with microchipping, freeze marks must help though? I don't know how often these horror stories actually happen relative to the numbers of horses and ponies out on loan - that should factor in somewhere, can you guard against a very very remote possibility or is it a sort of probability that would warrant more expense or monitoring in new home?

I've had ponies on loan before, didn't mind weekly contact (tapered off after a while as everyone relaxed) in fact it was good to know the owner stayed involved.

SaggyOldClothCatPuss · 08/02/2012 13:45

January's horse and hound has a good article about loaning and the legalities and ownership.
I downloaded the Bhs agreement and then modified it to fit my pony. It's geared for a horse, so I had to take out bits about feeding and shoeing, and replace them with 'no shoes' and 'no hard feed' without consulting me first! It should include categorically that the deal is a loan NOT a sale. They need to be signed by you and the loaner and witnessed.
Another important point is that any money which changes hands for transport or tack could be used against you in court as evidence of a sale!
I specified how I wanted her fed, shod, tacked and generally kept. Any divergence form his required a discussion with me first!

Original poster
Callisto · 08/02/2012 14:09

That BHS form is brilliant - there are things on there that I just wouldn't even have considered. I shall bear in mind the money changing hands thing - on the BHS form it says that insurance for the pony may have to be bought by the owner with the borrower paying the owner the premium. So I shall steer clear of that.

I have mailed FarmKey about freezemarking. It is about £50 and I think may be worth it for my peace of mind.

OP posts:
SaggyOldClothCatPuss · 08/02/2012 18:03

Horse and hound also had an article in last month, about DNA. There's a £25 kit you can buy to put them on a DNA register.
Freeze marking is great if you DON'T have a grey pony! Fairly pointless if you do! Grin

Pixel · 08/02/2012 19:34

There was a helpful bit on the Horse and Hound forum the other day about safeguarding your horse when it is out on loan. They said to contact the passport people and national equine database to register it as being on loan. I'll see if I can find it as I can't remember all the details...

Pixel · 08/02/2012 19:45

here it is

maturenanny · 08/02/2012 21:11

hi there

good luck with it all! in my loan agreement i covered

*limitations of use ie no jumping/hunting, riding on hard ground (due to an injury that couldnt be aggrevated)

  • list of equipment ie rugs, brushes, rugs etc
  • if returned by loanee it was at their expense and to the yard where originally loaned from, if owner wants back - the cost of transport is covered by them
  • not to be kept at any other stable other than the one named on the agreement, unless in a dire emergency
  • any injury/illness arrising in the care of loanee, owner to be informed but loanee responsible for full and final treatment
  • owner can visit at any time without notice to perform a spot check or arrange a mutually agreeable time to visit.
  • all vaccinations are to be kept upto date and payed for by the loanee
  • shoeing not to be changed without discussion to owner
  • not to change bit ( i was lucky, had a lovely light mouthed pony so didnt want him over bitted!)
  • my pony was a traditional full hairy cob so a clause saying that in no uncertain terms were his feathers or mane to be clipped/cut/pulled in any way, he HAD to remain hairy! (obviously a trace/bib body clip is fine for exercising!)
  • 1 months notice on either side to terminate agreement or owner can remove immediatly if they suspect or have proof that the conditions of loaning said pony arent being met inc the welfare, grazing, stabling etc not being fit for purpose.

vitally my last cause said something along the lines of that to date my pony has been well behaved, has no vices and is good to handle from the ground and ride, however he is a wild animal and should be treated as such

Hope that all helps!
x

Original poster
Callisto · 09/02/2012 08:20

That's great, thanks Pixel. I shall certainly make sure the passport people know that he is on loan.

Great checklist Mature - and really good point about making sure there is a clause stating that the pony is well-behaved and vice-free but needs firm handling. In fact I'm not sure how to put it - pony is a Shetland x and while a sweetheart if kept in line he turns a bit feral if left to his own devices for any length of time. Not in a nasty way and still fine to catch, but he does get a bit bargy. So I need to say that he needs dicipline and boundaries (just like DD Wink) without it coming across as he needs a regular beating.

OP posts:
SaggyOldClothCatPuss · 09/02/2012 09:26

Id be really careful writing anything about behaviour. You don't want it coming back to bite you on the arse if there is a problem. If you write that it needs firm handling at times, there's a chance that you could be admitting to liability.

Original poster
Callisto · 09/02/2012 14:33

Good point Saggy. Gawd this loaning business is a minefield.

OP posts:
MitchieInge · 09/02/2012 14:34

I would think the boundaries/barging thing is an implied, inherent in handling horses matter. Wouldn't spell it out.

frostyfingers · 09/02/2012 14:35

If it isn't going too far away, mention that you'd like to pop in now and again just to keep in touch with pony (trying not to imply that you are actually checking up on them!).

Booboostoo · 09/02/2012 16:09

The passport is not proof of ownership and it needs to stay with the pony when it's transported, treated by a vet etc.

In my experience by far the best thing you could do to safeguard your pony is to stay in very regular contact with the loanees and visit often (once a month). That way you can see if the pony has any welfare issues, if they are struggling to cope, if he has any behavioural issues, etc.

Original poster
Callisto · 09/02/2012 17:33

I will definitely be checking up on him, which is why I don't want him any further that an hours drive away. He is such a brilliant pony - we took him out for a hack this afternoon through loads of machinery and dug up yard and pheasants flying up under his nose and he did not flinch once, but I do worry that in the wrong hands he will turn into a little shit (he already has little shit tendancies that I have to keep in check).

I emailed Farmkey yesterday but still haven't heard from them so I am going to get in touch with the other company (forget the name). Bit crap of Farmkey in the current climate really.

OP posts:
Pixel · 09/02/2012 18:18

Booboo, it's not proof of ownership but if you've already informed the passport agency that the pony is on loan it will be flagged up if someone tries to have the details changed.

LowRegNumber · 10/02/2012 07:18

You don't send the passport with a loan pony! If you ask the vet there is a special document you can get for recording vacs and taking to shows etc especially for this kind of thing. Or you can use vacs as a time to pop in. I know one pony on loan at our yard has his owners drop by whilst the vet is there to get the book signed, all the others have the vacs certificate thingummy. Please don't send the passport with him.

SaggyOldClothCatPuss · 10/02/2012 07:56

Legally yOu cannot travel an equine without It's passport.
If you do and are stopped, it can be impounded.

maturenanny · 10/02/2012 10:57

I agree with Saggy - the loanee must have the passport otherwise they cant transport anywhere...techinically not even in an emergency to an equine clinic, there are no exceptions!
I also informed my insurance company, farmkey, petlog for microchip.
Plus you cant garuntee that you can be there for vaccinations or visits for illness etc, thats a bit unresonable, especially if pony is so far away, logistical nightmare!

Also re behaviour - thats why I wasnt specific and said re whild animal ect and I wasnt responsible for any injury to the loanee or anyone that comes into contact with my pony...a disclaimer if you like!

Sadly a friend of mine lent out her schoolmaster RIHS qualified pony to a family, first 3 or 4 months was fine..the prefect pony, my friend had regular updates and pics, then out of the blue she got an email saying he was coming back, he had turned nasty, bucking, biting etc. So my friend has him back...he comes back with the hugest gash/hole in his neck and mane. Turns out their big 17hh (he was 12hh) had cornered him and attacked him! Scared him for life, he is a dear little pony, cue £££`s of vet bills, gentle handling, not going nr big horses. I forgot to mention, they had brought him a month before, tried to claim all their money back on the grounds he wasnt fit, even though he has been fine for 3/4 months! Needless to say my friend told them to take a running jump and threatned to sue them..I am happy to report that a few yrs down the line, he has now been sold to the perfect family, we are all friends on fb, hes having a ball, can bearly see the scars..the little girl who has him, adores him, they spend hours, she treats him like a dog, he follows! Money couldnt buy him.....

That said, its just one story of bad but thankfully turning out perfect in the end!
x

SaggyOldClothCatPuss · 10/02/2012 14:22

I'd still be really careful with that. By saying even that it might happen you're giving a suggestion of liability. In this day and age it's not worth it! Believe me ive been there!

ExitPursuedByaBear · 10/02/2012 14:29

Off topic slightly, but has anyone ever been asked for their horse passport, other than by the vet when being jabbed?

SaggyOldClothCatPuss · 10/02/2012 14:43

Yes. Mine puts a sticker in it.

ExitPursuedByaBear · 10/02/2012 15:20

Sorry, I mean by anyone else except the vet. Re the comments up thread about the horse being impounded if you were found travelling without the passport. Nobody has ever asked to see mine.