advice needed - horse not liking being bridled

[meagle]

Hi, I've just started sharing a horse after years of riding at riding schools. I've been used to sluggish horses who are generally easy to handle. My share horse has been well schooled but is big and can throw his weight around, literally, when he doesn't want to do something. He's recently started to resist being bridled - he holds his head out of reach so I struggle to get it on. The last time this happened he broke his halter rope by pulling away. I don't want him to intimidate me - any suggestions on how I can manage this behaviour will be gratefully received!

Get a crate to stand on!
Seriously though,is he in pain? He could have a sore poll, or bad teeth, causing him discomfort. He could have sore ears. Have you tried undoing one side of the bit, putting the bridle over his ears and then putting the bit in and doing it up?

I had a big horse that did this. He was 18hh and previously used by a riding school - I rescued him!

He developed the habit because he was roughly handled by anybody who tacked him up - usually the taller kids/teenagers who helped out at the riding school and by putting his head so high he managed to evade them. They also banged his teeth when they took his bridle off as well!

I managed to re train him after about 6 months by gentle handling and as Catpuss has said slipping the bridle over his ears, bit in his mouth and then doing the cheek piece on one side.
I made sure that nobody else but me tacked and untacked him and he was soon back to the pleasent easy to handle big fella that he was.

How about holding a polo mint on the bit as you slip it in as well? I did not try that but know it worked for someone else.

We have a hunter on the yard who does this - he does it to take the piss (though he is so lovely it is done in a nice way) and I think that your share horse is doing it in the same way, though perhaps with not such a nice attitude. Using a crate is a good suggestion. A tip I heard was to put honey on the bit, though that is more for youngsters it might work in this case.

We have a horse like this so we dismantle one side of his bridle . This means you can put the headpiece over like a headcoller. For some reason he doesn't object at all to that. You then pass headpiece through browband, pop bit in and rebuild from there. May be worth a try?

My chap was difficult to bridle so now I always have a handful of pony nuts under the bit and just slide the bridle on as he takes the nuts.

Thanks for all your tips - I will definitely try the crate! I'm a bit reluctant to offer treats as I think this encourages him to invade my space - he's always after my pockets and tho' not aggressive it can still be intimidating. I will also try undoing the bridle. I don't think he's in any discomfort but he may well have picked up on my nervousness and this makes him uneasy and/or impatient. I'll let you know how I get on anyway. Thanks again!

Does he have the same problem with other riders? If yes, I would get the vet out to check for a physical problem first. If not, then he might be testing you.

When you use treats as rewards the first thing you teach is a 'leave it' command so animals tend to become a lot less bargey about food. They learn that moving away from you gets rewarded rather than the other way round. I only mention this as if the problem is behavioural you could solve it in a couple of days by teaching him to lower his head on command.

I had a mare who started to do this a few months after I got her. The crate thing didn't work as she would either toss her head or move forwards/backwards so I was stood up on the crate dangling the bridle looking like a wally! Neither did treats or strapping the bit after the headpiece etc...if she saw the bit she would just pull away.

My DH could manage it but she would always beat me. She snapped her leadrope a couple of times pulling to get away from me (perfect with everything else though). I just couldn't get to the bottom of why, just cheek and habit I think (no pain).

In the end I bought a bitless bridle (NOT a hackamore) and it was the solution. I had never considered one before but it was fine, she took to it straight away and you don't have to modify your riding style.

I contacted her old owner and she confirmed she used to do this with less confident riders. She had also been diagnosed as 'bridle lame' though I'm unsure if there is any connection.

Good luck, I truly understand how frustrating it is. Also how inadequete you feel when your stable neighbours' horses just open their gobs to order

Sounds like stubborness rather than fear to me. In your position, I'd adopt a firm hand and always bridle him in his stable where he can't run off easily and with the headcollar around his neck.

The worst thing you can do with a big stubborn horse is to fanny around, being soft and sensitive. Otherwise it will escalate - I know from experience!

I also thought about the honey on the bit but it might be a short term fix and he might go back to being an awkward git if there is no honey!

I think you must eliminate pain before you label this as stubborness, as it is a behaviour that has developed recently.
Then anyone who tacks him up needs to check themselves to make sure they are being polite about it.
This should be pretty easy to resolve. Take a little bit of time one day and pretend he's new to being bridled. Get a bowl of sugar water, take the bit off, dip it in the water and re-educate him about the bit. If you do this correctly he shouldn't use it as an excuse to mug you, but it will change his perception about taking the bit. You can then gradually build up the bridle again until he's coming down to take the bit when the bridle is offered.

I have spent some time training with more western-style trainers and they would be mortified if they had to take a "firm hand" to bridle their horses. It's a sign of good training to have a horse that takes it's head down to be bridled and that takes the bit rather than needing it pushed against it's teeth. I'd be aiming to have the horse look for the bridle and bit, without force.
(No, they don't stop behaving once the sugar water is taken away. However they might if someone gets rough or inconsiderate with them when bridling them at any time).

Lucyinthepie - the OP indicates this is a horse who throws his weight around. Not all horses are meek and gentle - as you will know if you are an experienced horse handler.

Have the horse's teeth checked by all means if you want to rule this out - but if he's fine eating carrots and having a halter put on to be turned out in the field, then the chances are he's just taking the piss.

p.s. I don't think eating carrots feels the same as a bit in the mouth, which is why I wouldn't apply that as a test to decide if a horse had started to be uncomfortable in it's mouth. I'd do the fair thing and get the dentist out.

In experienced hands, those techniques may work. In the wrong hands, they're a recipe for disaster. I've seen so many people go to similar shows (I've been to a couple myself with friends) and then they fanny around with their horses when they get back, continually making excuses for their horses bad behaviour.

The only thing that worked with my very stubborn horse was a firm hand - which was agreed with my British Dressage trainer - and after some time and hard work, he was transformed.

Adopting a firm hand doesn't mean being rough or inconsiderate. It's about showing who is in charge - and that should be you, not the horse.

I'm not being argumentative with you, honestly. I think the purpose of discussions like this is to present alternatives and don't really care about persuading anyone to my viewpoint. The Op just chooses whatever approach they feel will sit best with them in view of their confidence and experience.
I'm surprised though that you would consider it less of a recipe for disaster to recommend that someone who is with their first share horse should apply a "firm hand", than to use a simple and less confrontational approach. I think that approach is just as relevant to only "experienced hands" as any other. And to be honest, I'm really chuckling at the concept that the fact that someone is a "British Dressage Trainer" gives some sort of validation that they will give the best advice about handling horses. I wouldn't let some of the ones I've met anywhere near my horses.

Still, Op now has options, which hopefully as she is just a sharer she will discuss with the horse's owner before doing anything.

Anyone interested in thinking slightly outside the box about horse training, there are some brilliant trainers in the UK next year. They aren't "soft", and they are very interesting. I'd recommend Mark Rashid, Karen Rholf and Steve Halfpenny just off the top of my head. Probably Tom Widdicombe as well.

Just to comment on the physical side of things, I have a horse who went bridle lame because of a tiny sharp point on a tooth right at the back which was being touched (not even squashed but touched) by the bridle. Horses can b perfectly fine eating, wearing head collars and even accepting bridles but if there are signs of pain, the first thing is to eliminate pain.

OP's horse may have a variety of physical reasons for being worried about the bit from ear mites, to a sinus infection, to overgrown teeth, to cranial tumours from melanomas, to a cut/ulcerated mouth, etc. Some of these are rare, extreme or would be accompanied by other symptoms but it's only reasonable to discount physical pain before attempting behaviour modification.

Yes, there are various methods and you are entitled to your opinion. For the record, the British Dressage trainers I have used have been fantastic. Not sure why you feel the need to 'diss' these professionals.

However in order to save OP time and money, she would be much better having the back up and experience of a local trainer, than someone just here in the UK on a visit, running a clinic, charging an arm and a leg etc. What use is that?

I think Mark/Monty/Kelly et al do use a "firm hand", as in fair, strong and consistent.

That of course is very different from a slap-happy, unclear shouty hand iykwim.

I also know what you mean about people fannying around with IH concepts but woefully missing the mark. Wearing a cowboy hat doesn't make you Pete ramey! ;)

What an extreme reaction to someone suggesting an alternative view.
I didn't "diss" anyone, I just pointed out that someone being a BDT was no guarantee of their handling skills. Nor did I say Op needed to get backup from people at clinics. I offered a simple strategy that many might find attractive and simple to apply. If Op feels she needs physical assistance (after she's agreed with the owner) then she's best off finding someone local who is recommended for their good horse handling skills, not searching for someone with a particular label. However, he's not her horse and many owners would probably prefer to be involved in discussions about any changes in behaviour and how to remedy them.
I also said that the trainers I mentioned weren't "soft"...
Don't know where IH and Monty and Kelly come into it, I've got nothing to do with what they do. (I think Join Up is a crock of shit though, if anyone wants to get really riled up about something - this is Mumsnet after all and I know how people like to get riled up. )
I still agree with the sentiments that Booboostoo has expressed above. I think it's very unfair on a horse that has only recently started to object to label him as stubborn and as throwing his weight around... as if throwing his weight around is a bad thing, when it may just be him expressing discomfort.
And, having done what I intended, which was to offer an idea to Op, I'll leave this thread to people who care much more about people agreeing with what they think should be done than I do.

p.s. Other trainers were mentioned out of interest, just in case anyone feels like going to see something different. I don't think Op needs 1-1 support from Mark Rashid!

Hi, just thought I'd pop back from the sidelines - I'm surprised that my query caused such a heated discussion, but as Lucyinthepie pointed out, Mumsnetters tends disagree about a lot of stuff! I did mention the bridling problem to the owner and she is going to get his teeth rasped (he is overdue for this). She also said he has been like this in the past, and has broken headcollars before by pulling away when tied up. I feel a bit out of my depth with trying to rectify the problem. I will certainly try the sugar-water on the bit method if owner agrees. But I also think it's more than just getting the bit in - it's as if the horse gets impatient and has learned he can walk off if he pulls hard enough.
I'm sympathetic to natural horsemanship methods - I've been working with training a rescue dog and the approach is similar, ie, very animal-centred. In some ways it's harder work but it pays off in the long-term. I need to get in some practical experience on the horse side of things so I'll look out workshops. Thanks again to everyone for the advice.

This may not help you at all but thought I would just add my experience. I have a 16.1 ISH who for some reason out of the blue decided she didn't like having her bridle on. It took a while to get over it but by lowering all the buckles on the bridle and putting the other ear in first she is now so much better. I think in the past she was ear twitched and something lately has triggered memories so doesn't like her left ear being touched. It's a bit bizarre tacking up from the otherside but it suits her. Just thought I would share, hope your horse gets over it soon I know how much of a pain it is

Thanks Spud28 - it's always useful hearing someone else's take on things. AFAIK my share horse has not had anything bad happen in the past - owner has had him since a foal and he was expertly broken in. I now have a few tactics to try and I'll let you know how I get on.

Please don't use a milk crate to stand on in case he puts his foot through it, they cause horrible injuries

Also, this may sound silly, but make sure that his ears and the long fuzzy hair around the browband aren't being pinched/pulled. If your horse isn't clipped, you may be surprised how this tends to happen. Especially if he is very tall and you can't really see the top of the bridle to see how the hair is being pulled.

Good luck!