Riding instructor insists on crop, dd won't use it

[ZZZenAgain]

Hi there, help

dd has been riding for a while, is no big noise on a horse. She is on a week long course at a new place and not happy about it. Rdiding instructor insists they must all use a crop, she hasn't had to till now. Dd says she will not hit the horse with it, instructor ahs been screaming at her (she says), "you have a crop, use it" and insists she hit the horse hard (well hard as a 9 year old would manage) across the shoulders.

Learning to ride for me when I was a kid was : there's your horse, stand on a bucket, get up and go. We just did it somehow, gaucho style I suppose but our situation was very different to the riding school formal set-up, lots of space, etc probably all quite primitive. Never used crops.

So is this usual and does she need to just get on with it or is she right to baulk at it? Should I just withdraw her from it if it is not for her? Seems the policy there, everyone had to use a crop, the whole time according to dd. I was not there. I don't mind losing the money if it is not right, not sure how to tackle it.

Can anyone advise me?

I did say that if a horse switches its tail at flies, it will slap back harder than she would manage with the crop and that its basically that her leg might not have a clear, strong enough feel for the horse so the crop is just to reinforce that but she says it feels like animal abuse and she wanted to throw the crop on the ground.

So do we just accept riding is not her thing after all or look elsewhere? WWYD?

I wouldn't be happy with that, what she doing and why does the instructor think she needs to use one all the time? DD only carries a stick if she's hacking her rather naughty pony without other horses. I can't carry a crop on the ex-racehorse i ride unless I want to gallop flat out. Can still jump a tidy round and school without it.

If your DD's leg aids aren't strong enough she needs to work on them and maybe the pony needs some more work?

Ds has been riding a year and doesn't have one. He finds it hard sometimes as on some of the bigger ponies he rides his legs don't come below the saddle, which I think makes it harder for him to kick. He is confident at walk, trot, canter and is the only one in his class without a crop. I haven't got him one and haven't been asked to.

I certainly wouldn't be happy with being told to whack a horse on its shoulders. Never heard of that before and I've been riding on and off for nearly 40 years (am very old!).

Itcould be that she has to compensate for some problem she has, I don't know but she said everyone in their group of 5 has to use the crop and they were being told to hit all the time, which sounds like it is just their standard practice. Dd was the only one who wouldn't do it and as a result, she says, she got screamed at the whole time. At least that is how she felt. Not thrilled about that either. Will have to ask her how big the horse was, she only told me he was black (!)

I never did dressage or show jumping and never went through the riding school system - my father just gave us some tips or correction now and again (so we are all probably crap) but we just rode, rode out but nothing fancy. We didn't ever have a crop so I don't know if this is just the way riding schools do it and maybe have to do it to get any kind of response from their ponies. Dd is not particularly small or frail, quite the opposite I would have thought.

I asked dh who went to riding school as a boy and he says they didn't use crops until quite late on. Ofcourse this is long ago. He says change the school.

I wasn't there, can't be there to watch since I am working this week so I will pull her out but I am wondering whether to say anything much about it. The organisers bus the kids there and back and I need to explain she will not be going so they know where they re.

Ok so if th crop is not the norm, I will explain that was the problem with us and the manner in which the lesson was taught - by which I mean screaming at a dc to do something (they are supposed to be doing gallop I understand) rather than simply explaining the use of the crop and that the horse would not be hurt. This is a summer programme set-up.

I am not sure about striking on the shoulders, perhaps I misunderstood that. sounds very odd to me.

Thanks, will give them a call but I think since I cannot view it myself, I'll leave it.

It doesn't really matter what other people consider the norm, shouting and screaming at children on ponies is horrible and stupid!

It's not uncommon (in my limited experience) to use a crop on the shoulders to discourage the drift/falling in on circles, corners, but that's pressure rather than thwack and just to reinforce weak aids I think? It is definitely very bhs to carry a whip pretty much all the time and carry it correctly. You only use it if they don't first listen to your leg, it's not a continuous thing otherwise they'll be totally dead to all commands surely?

Could you observe for yourself, or discreetly ask other parents to get fuller picture?

My daughter needs a schooling whip with her pony, he respects it and it would be a bit foolhardy to try without. The horsey world never fails to amuse and amaze me though, a friend had lessons at an extreme natural horsemanship yard (no whips allowed) and gave her lazy horse a good pony club kick and was made to dismount and leave the premises and not allowed back!

I think you do need to talk to the instructor and see what can be done to salvage the situation, your daughter should be having FUN!

Its many years since I learned to ride but in all that time I never used a crop. It sounds like very bad practice to me.

Getting back on a horse years later it never entered my head to use a crop. There are strict regulations on the number of times a jockey may hit horse in a race. A crop is not necessary. If horse is that badly beaved it needs to be schooled or got rid of.

at a good riding school the ponies should be well schooled and be responsive to instructors voice commands so when little ones are learning to eg. canter they give the aid and is pony doesn't respond the instructor helps out with voice.

That way they learn correct aids.

When a bit older the crop should only be used as an aid ...and never ever ever ever as punishment.

...and I agree.... is should be FUN.

ok thanks everyone. I called the organisers and explained that dd was not happy to use the crop and neither she nor I were impressed with the style of teaching so she wouldn't finish the programme.

We used to have a nice school before we moved but with the language issue here, I am a bit limited where we are. OK I will ask for some recommendations and be more careful in sizing a place up next time. Thanks very much! Mind you this was recommended by a mum from school. Will ensure I go and see a place myself and observe a private lesson or something, so I know what is what

definitely does not seem to have been fun

so have reassured dd that actually fun is what it is all about. She did roll her eyes at that andsaid: It wasn't fun at all mum. Would you it fun if you were being screamed at to hit a horse?

no, I suppose I wouldn't. Bummer. Hate organising fun things forthe holidays that turn out to be a total flop

Well, I'm a learner rider, and do use a crop on the shoulder, but only when dhorse is ignoring leg and voice aids. I need it about once a lesson, if that and then he stops ignoring me and decides that obeying reasonable instructions is actually the right course of action. Instructor says it is better to have one tap to reinforce the aid than nagging on with no response.

My instructor advised using it on the shoulder as I don't have the co-ordination yet to release reins, use correctly, and retake whilst doing the transition.

I'd rather not use a crop/whip myself, but Dhorse is young and cheeky, and he does respect it from not a lot of force

But using it all the time, and screaming at DCs isn't good at all

see what you mean about the reins/coordination etc. Hadn't thought about that

I would have thought if you do not have sufficient co-ordination to use reins and a crop you shouldn't have a crop in the first place. In ds's class the instructor uses a lunge whip on the ground behind the pony (doesn't touch them but they know it is there). The older dcs use a crop in the usual way but sparingly.

DD (7) always carries a short stick out hacking and a schooling whip when having lessons.

This is because our ponies are very well schooled but can become lazy as her feet don't really come below the saddle flaps (even on 15" saddles).

Her instructor (a showing specialist) asks for a tap on the shoulder if leaning into the corners and a hit on the bottom if not going on or not doing clean transitions. She only hits him if no response after she has already asked him with a squeeze/kick. Usually one early hit is good enough for the whole lesson.

Our horses live a life of luxury but sometimes they need a whack just to stop them taking the mickey or sometimes (when faced by a ditch or machinery out hacking) going into reverse.

sounds like the ponies are not very well schooled and have become dead to the leg. A short stick is best used for jumping or when out hacking to ensure obedience if your pony gets stubborn or something. Should not really be used on the shoulder much as it is to back up leg aids (may be for straightness etc though) A long whip is used for more subtle aids and can be used without taking hands off reins. I would advise riders to use stick if pony being lazy as constant kicking will deaden their sides, so ask twice with leg then smack with stick to get a more prompt response, aim being that quickly you won't need to use stick as pony realises you actually mean it the first time so it is less cruel than constantly nagging with legs. Often just carrying a stick helps as pony can see it out corner of eye, so don't necessarily need the coordination to use it. I would be more worried about the general style of teaching you described and hope your daughter has not been put off and you find somewhere more appropriate, it can be so hard sometimes. are you outside the uk?

Thanks, can see the sense in that. Very helpful. These posts are all very helpful because honestly like I said, I have never used a crop. I can see how it would work that way though.

I had to make some sort of a decision about it this morning so I decided to just pull her out since I really don't know what is going on there and if she was unhappy about it, seemed no point in continuing. I had her signed up for two weeks, this session and then in a fortnight again.

We can get in some riding when we go away in August I should think. She's still keen to ride but not to go back there. Jsut wasn't sure if it was me being overly precious about it (which I admit I tend to be) and dd needing to adjust, or if it was perhaps not the right place.

Yes, we are in the Czech Republic these days

I think she could be introduced to the crop 1-1 in a quieter lesson and she might then feel right with it (instructor then also less stressed presumably). That might work, maybe dh could do it

all ponies will take the piss be a bit cheeky sometimes, don't think it necessarily follows that they haven't been schooled properly

it's really important to enjoy the experience as well as learn safe and effective techniques though, am sure there isn't One Way and One Way Only of doing things and even within say, bhs, schools there's a lot of variation of style and method,

I work at a riding school every summer during pony club camp week. It is a really good school. I have heard it taught there, that a whip, among other things like martingales, nosebands and spurs are 'secondary aids'. You use them to reinforce the 'primary aids', seat, legs, hands, voice. You can use the whip on the flank or neck.
The ponies there are well schooled, but you have to remember, they are school ponies. They do the same thing, day in and day out, and are often bored. For some, the evasion is entertainment. The instructors know the horses, and know which ones need a whip.
Unfortunately, Instructors are as varied as ponies. The school we use, has a couple of loud bouncy, lets ride the biggest ponies and learn to go as fast as we can instructors, and a couple of sensible, lets not over horse ourselves and learn stuff instructors. Both types are very popular. (I prefer the second, and am a little at children riding ponies so big that their legs dont reach past the saddle flaps!)
Sounds like you have chosen the wrong type of instructor. Your daughter also needs to learn that a whip has its place like any other piece of equipment, and is not 'bad' when used appropriately.

If a child is being taught to use a whip to reinforce their leg, by hitting the pony on the shoulder... then it's not reinforcing the leg. If the pony was well schooled, then a touch on the shoulder should move the shoulder over. A touch behind the leg should reinforce the leg. Or possibly on the rump. But honestly, so many riding schools teach use of the whip as a substitute for good riding or having their ponies well schooled. For simple increase in forward movement, a bit of plaited rope (see Monty Roberts Whip Wop but don't pay his inflated prices) would do the trick. You tend to just have to lift the wrist out so that the pony can see it in the corner of their eye. Not many riding schools are open to that sort of lateral thinking though are they?

Hi there,

I just stumbled over your post, looking for something completely different and was absolutely stunned and horrified.
I'm a freelance riding instructor and horse trainer, dressage trained in Germany to high standard, riding for 33 years, training young and green horses for 10 of those and practising as an instructor for the last 3. I'm not BHS registered or anything like that BUT I would strongly advise you to walk away from an instructor who expects you to use the crop on the shoulder. It's absolutely not done in decent horse riding. Full stop. No discussion. No ifs and whens. Terribly, terribly bad practice. I shudder to think what other nonsense your child is being taught. Your instincts are absolutely spot on! Find a different riding school. Good luck!