Solving the toilet problem.

[pestothepenguin]

This must be annoying me if I'm writing about at twixmas. It wanted others views and solutions.

What is your school Policy. I'm in good
Small rural secondary with above average P8.I've been teaching 21 years. Classroom teacher.

We have a policy where we use our professional judgement as to where eg students are permitted to go to the toilet during a lesson. We can't deny a child the right to go to the bathroom. SLT realise there is a problem.

My view is that the are odd occasions through the year where someone may need to use the toilet.

But we now have significant issues with high numbers of pupils out of lessons.

Usually the same children ask every lesson. They are gone for 10-15 minutes. If you don't allow them to go they ruin the lesson by demanding and swearing the "need a piss" or "will piss themselves" and then if you go thought he behaviour policy they get sent out and go anyway and have ruined a nice lesson.

These Students will ask to go to toilet to use their phones, vape and meet their friends. Often, these student have "toilets passes" issued by learning managers. There is usually one of these students in each lesson.

Next are the other students who may e work avoidant or just need the toilet once you let one student go you have to let others go. So even if it's one at a time you have a constant cycle of toilet breaks. Which involve filling in their planners.

My view is that student do not need to go to the toilet in a 1 hour lessons. They should go between lesson.

I honestly think that if we didn’t have such Draconian rules around going to the toilet in schools and had a culture where children just went to the toilet when they needed to, we would never have these battles. It would be a huge culture shift because once we open the doors to say “Go whenever you need to” there will be loads of kids taking the piss (metaphorically, not literally - although there will be loads of those too!) but eventually when the novelty of being released from the classroom wears off, it would be less of an issue.

I also wish we could have an attitude where the kids who piss about in the toilets (again, metaphorically) are responsible for their own fuck ups if they then perform badly in exams because they spent most of their lessons in the toilets, rather than the teacher getting the blame for it. Oh, to dream…

But that would still mean lots of student unsupervised around the school and this is the problem

I whole heartedly agree with you sentiment

The only solution I can see is having a duty rota where teachers (preferably SLT)are on “toilet duty”. A small desk stationed outside the toilets with a computer or laptop set up so they can get on with whatever they’re doing whilst on duty. That would deter most students from messing about in the toilets.

We have a similar policy but the students have an 'out of class' pass in their planners. They need it signed with the time and reason everytime they leave the classroom. Failure to have it will automatically be challenged as truanting which leads to a day in isolation and an after school detention. It means those that need the toilet can go and those that are taking the piss can be seen immediately because it will be clear if they've taken a ridiculous amount of time or trying to get out of multiple lessons/the same lesson consistently. It's not a perfect system but I think our main issue is that we have 5 toilet cubicles for a school of nearly 2000 kids.

We have a simple solution that works well. One boy, one girl at a time. If anyone goes in lesson time, we let them (it's their human right blah blah blah) but they have to make up the time that they are away during their break time (not as a punishment, we just worry so much that they miss vital learning time). That is how we have put it to parents, and we haven't had any issues. With this being the case, very few ask to go in lesson time or if they do, they are back within less than a minute. The kids know how to play the system. We just have to take control and be a step ahead.

Only thing I can think of is:

• rota of toilet monitoring teachers (But lets face it, who has staff spare? Start with any teachers with a less full timetable).

Use tech/apps to log how often kids go & for how long, toilet passes get suspended if abused

If more than 20 mins lesson time missed per day, have to make it up in detention etc

Schools should have toilets located opposite offices/reception etc so that there are always people to monitor.

I partially agree with the PP who said if rules weren't so draconian, we'd have less of an issue, but also with the one who pointed out that we have far too few toilets.

In my school, we're not supposed to let students go during lesson time unless they're absolutely desperate (which they always are, funnily enough), but senior and pastoral staff also stop them from going between lessons, which means students can easily go 2.5h without being able to use the toilet. Of course this causes issues.

We have maybe 20 toilets for close to 1000 students, which they are all expected to use during already far too short breaks and lunches. And while they're separated by key stages and reasonably open-plan, the younger ones still don't like going when a huge gang of Y9 are hogging the washing area.

Solutions?

First of all, stop them drinking all the time. No child needs to suckle on a bottle all day every day. It's become ridiculously common for kids to complain they cannot survive one hour without water even in a Science lab. If we didn't have this unnecessary over-obsession with hydration, far fewer children would constantly need the toilet. Save drinking for breaks and lunches.

Secondly, let them go, but only ever one at a time, having made them wait for a bit. My students know I won't let them go unless they have completed a certain amount of work, no matter when they ask during a lesson. Some will walk out if not allowed to go straight away, but I treat it as truancy, same as any student who doesn't return within 5mins. Thus, I don't have more than 3 students go in any one hour.

I also think our female students should have access to sanitary products inside fully private cubicles. Too many ask to go in lessons because they're embarrassed of the obvious rustling sound of sanitary towels. Gaps above/ below doors rather than fully enclosed cubicles make this worse.

Lastly, a monitoring system that is independent of teachers. That can take the form of pushing a button next to a name (these systems exist and alert someone automatically on, say, the third toilet break during a day), or a few members of staff employed full-time to monitor toilets, who pass on any concerns about frequency/ time to the pastoral team, who then contact home.

I'm at a very big comprehensive secondary and we started trialing a Welfare Assistance system in September. Now, we have a 'button' on our register system which sends an alert, and a member of SLT or HOS (who are on a rota) will come and escort to the toilet. Students are still discouraged "Can you hang on 5 more minutes and get back to me?" and they know that they can't request it in the first/last 10 mins of the lesson. The amount of students who suddenly decide they don't need a wee after all has been very interesting. Some do push their luck, but it's been a good way of making sure those who need access to the toilets can have it (we also have a toilet pass system whereby some students can just flash the pass and go straight there).
Tbh I don't think there is an 'answer' to the toilet problem, kids were blocking the toilets and hiding in there for a ciggie when I was at school 20 years ago, equally they still do it now (albeit for a blue raspberry vape instead!)

Just to add, I agree with @Elendel on point 1. There must be some kind of correlation between the sharp increase in sales of Radnor Fizz and toilet breaks during lesson time 😂

I am 67 years old. When I was at my secondary modern school aged 14 one of my classmates asked to go to the toilet. The teacher refused to let him go and he peed himself in the classroom. That was bullying.

I remember this happening when I was in Year 8 to a girl whose first day it was at the school. I would have just walked out of the classroom and went if I had been in her shoes, but she had just moved to the U.K. from somewhere in the Caribbean where disobeying a teacher was a HUGE no no, so she did as she was told and stayed. I felt so sorry for her.

This sounds good. At least it would be down to me to manage so much.

We have so many students out of lessons now it's disruptive.

I work abroad (EU). In this country, it is not the culture that students go to the toilet during lessons. If a student had a medical issue, they would have a doctor’s certificate and staff would be aware that the student can go out to the toilet (about 5% of students have medical certificates, usually for asthma, less often epilepsy or diabetes. I don’t know any students who have one for going to the toilet during lessons.) Lessons are 55 minute long with a 5 minute change over when they can use the toilet and from 10 years old when they enter secondary school; this is the expectation of everyone. I have never heard a parent complain about this.

Students who are late to class are marked as such as this contributes to a detention (3 strikes system).

There are staff to supervise the toilet breaks, shoo everyone to class, and keep an eye on the corridors during lesson times.

I feel English schools need to move towards this (see also, banning phones) rather than having the students decide which rules they will or won’t follow.

I feel English schools need to move towards this (see also, banning phones) rather than having the students decide which rules they will or won’t follow.

English schools already have. The issue isn't with the spirit of the policies, it's with the culture of how education and educators are seen.

I have had numerous students walk out at some point or another when I have told them that they cannot go. Numerous parents telling me that I'm unreasonable for not letting them go. Numerous colleagues who don't want the conflict with students and parents and let them go, making it harder for the rest of us. And one formal write-up because of a student who I wouldn't let go, who caused a massive scene, which became my fault. So now I've reached a compromise in my classrooms with the above tactics.

Similar happens with phones. Not a single school I've taught in has allowed mobile phones out, unless explicitly instructed to by the teacher. Every school has had policies of confiscation if a phone was seen out, with eventual parental meetings if the issue persisted. Nearly every school has not had the manpower to follow their own policies (e.g. support arriving in a timely manner if a student refuses to hand the phone over, or dealing with the swathes of parental confrontations over confiscated phones).

The issue in English schools goes far deeper than that. There is a distinct lack of respect for systems within education, the curriculum itself, and for educators.

This already is the system in most U.K. schools, and I don’t think it’s right. Humans should pee if they need to pee. It doesn’t need all the drama.

Very eloquent @elendel and I wholeheartedly agree with you.

I used to work at a school in central Europe and in the 2 years I was there, not 1 student ever asked to use the bathroom once. I think the biggest motivator was the lack of access to technology (most schools even now are chalkboard and paper based so no slides to put up on moodle if you miss it) and the fact that if you fail, you repeat the year or risk being thrown out of school. In fact, I remember a colleague would make students who hadn't done their homework leave the class as punishment and go complete their homework somewhere else.
I would completely support a system which puts more onus on students in regards to their education and we might see some of these issues disappear

Except certain students constantly try to miss 5 minutes of every lesson. Missing out on input or time to complete tasks, leading them to cause more disruption as they have missed something important.

I know, it’s a bloody nightmare. That’s why I think it would need a whole cultural shift which would take time. The novelty of being “allowed” to go to the toilets adds to them taking the piss. If going to the toilet was viewed as a normal, bodily function, this wouldn’t be an issue. That shift would take years to come through though, with thousands of disrupted lessons and missed learning opportunities in between, so it’s an idealistic vision really!

@GretchenWienersHair the issue that you are missing is that 90% of the student demanding to go to the toilet don't actually need to. They are in lesson 55 minutes. On the occasion that I need to go in a lesson, I take 90 seconds. These student take 10-15 minutes.

The school society isn't made up of people who have good critical evaluation skills.

The want to meet their mates, vape, go on their phones or just walk about school, some want to vandalise and in one instance a vulnerable pupil set fire to the toilet roll and then the panel the whole school was evacuated.

The problem is if we ban toilet visits and lock them up what about the 10%.

@pestothepenguin no, I know and I agree. I’m just dreaming of a world where we can let children and teenagers pee without wondering if we’re going to get a bollocking for it.

No one goes in the first 10 minutes or last 10 minutes. One out a time, once one comes back, there's a 5 minute gap before the next one out. Anyone out for more than 19 minutes gets an SLT call out.

Sorry, 10 not 19. Fat fingers.

20 toilets for 1000 students is not enough.

Ive just been thinking back to my noughties/90s school & counting up the toilets. There had to have been least 40 just girls loos

Maths/main hall - 8
Science/IT - 8
Pe changing rooms 3
Sports hall - 4
Languages 6
Music - 3
Humanities - 6
Sixth form block - 4
Tech - 2
Food science/textiles - 2

There were also separate staff loos

There were other random ones tucked away - there was a single staff one tucked behind an office in the language block, one opposite the sick room, one up in the area used for special needs interventions etc, one between the heads/deputies/admin staff office

There had to be this many because you really weren't often allowed to go in class, couldn't risk it between lessons unless desperate as you got consequences and if you were late. If you assume 1400 children are all trying to go in break and/or lunch and each child needs 3 mins to wee, thats 70 man hours of toilet time per day. Break plus lunch = 1.5 hours, you need 46 toilets for each child to wee once and lots will go twice.

Schools can't have it both ways. If you want all the students to hold it till break/lunch, you need to provide enough loos for them to all go within that short time frame.

Government guidance suggests 1 toilet for 20 pupils, so 50 toilets. You'd need more for staff.