If behaviour is good in your school...how?

[MissMelanieH]

Hi, I work in a primary school that has always had what you would politely describe as "character"
Lots of high needs families and pupils with SEND.
But despite that it was a lovely school to work in, nurturing, warm, family feel.

Now though, we have a new head who came from a leafy suburb school and implemented a Paul Dix style behaviour policy in her second week and now has run out of ideas. The behaviour is dire, multiple children in every class running around school in crisis, "gangs" fighting, swearing, children think nothing of telling teachers to fuck off, even the good kids.

So, if you work in a school where behaviour is, on the whole, good...what do you put it down to?

I'm fairly senior, new head is out of her depth so I'm desperate to make a difference and get the school on track again.
Thanks!

We tell children off. I know that sounds simplistic but I don't beat around the bush - I don't shout but I say things like 'you're talking when I'm talking, it's rude' or 'stop that's, it's very annoying'. The deputy head can give a very scary telling off when needed. I move children to sit by themselves if they're disrupting others. They miss some break after two warnings, or immediately for fighting etc. We have very good relationships with parents and the kids know that. But what you're describing sounds far beyond the problems I'm dealing with, even though our school is over 50% pupil premium and SEND way above average. I can't begin to imagine a primary child telling me to fuck off unless they have severe SEND.

I think it's a knock on effect though, pupils witness others say and do things and then it slowly becomes normalised.

I actually agree with a lot of the Paul Dix/nurture approach but it can often feel to is and to kids as if the children do awful things and there's no consequences.

Well you aren’t going to like my answer but strong restorative practice, excellent relationships and meeting the children where they are. Proper inclusion.

However, it has taken years to embed as culture in the school, and things got worse before they got better. It is so worth it now though. Our children (in the main) behave well because they are intrinsically motivated to do so. When they make mistakes they know they will be met with love and understanding. That doesn’t mean they don’t have to deal with the consequences of their actions. But we haven’t had a single exclusion for over 5 years (& we have 40% send, 45% pp).

Thanks @Familiaritybreedscontemptso I wonder why you think I won't like it though?

It sounds like we could be in the "getting worse before it gets better" phase...I certainly hope so!

Just out of interest, as you seem really well established. Restorative practice relies on reflective conversations (I'm guessing yours is pretty much the same?) how do you approach it when children with significant challenges simply refuse to engage with the reflective process?

Because it takes a really long time to embed. Which doesn’t match with being ‘desperate to make a difference and get the school on track again’. It requires a huge mindset shift from everyone in the school community and people have to truly move away from ‘I need to see a visible consequence / child must show remorse / be punished’ which is actually deeply embedded in most of us. It’s particularly hard as a new head when you haven’t picked your team in the same way as you have a few years in to the role (oh it worked in her leafy suburb but she doesn’t get our kids). I still think it is 100% worthwhile but buckle in for the long haul!

Split across 2 posts as I lost a really long reply earlier!

In my experience, everyone engages in the end. One of the problems is trying to have the restorative conversations too close to the point of crisis. For some kids that is days. Which is why that mindset shift is so key because people want things to be resolved quickly when they’ve been ‘wronged’. Our kids in general get it now. Sometimes parents find it harder but they get on board in the end (but it will always be a challenge for children when they are getting very different messages & modelling about how to deal with worries / conflict / issues at home). When new children join us it takes them a while to understand they won’t ever be met with anger at school. Some of them really push it as they work this out. Absolute consistency is key. But that’s why you’ve got to believe in the process (& that gets easier over time as you see it working & its impact).

It’s also having a really deep understanding of each individual child - meeting them where they are. I have a child at the moment who cannot apologise or admit any wrong on their part. But they are starting to be able to show understanding of others and some levels of self regulation. I’m confident that, by all the tiny actions and conversations over the years they’re with us, they’ll leave far better equipped for their future than if we imposed sanctions every time they make a mistake.

I know it all sounds a bit cult like. I’m very proud of what we’ve managed to achieve and really believe in relationship driven schools. We have a lot of children with really challenging home lives and they all race into school every morning - it’s their safe place. That doesn’t mean it’s easy for the adults. You have to live it every minute.

I work in a school where you can teach. We are all consistently strict. The children know where the line is. SLT enforce the rules and support the staff. As one poster put it, they get told off. They are expected to be silent when being taught and show respect. We get high results and behaviour was graded as outstanding, and it is. Children are kept in at break and lunch to redo work if it's not their best. Running out of class, swearing at staff, not following the rules, would have swift consequences. Any behaviour like that is nipped in the bud and stopped immediately. The other children see this and realise they have to behave.

The problem with the "soft", restorative approach is that life isn't like that in my opinion. When these children grow up and see the real world, they don't get a restorative chat. Walk down the street and hurt someone, the victim wants justice, they don't want a restorative, "let's have a chat", reaction. That's not the real world and never will be. Life isn't warm and fluffy, as much as we would like it to be. We need to be developing our children into robust, strong characters who can cope with the real world. Instead, certain schools are pretending that the world is a fair and wonderful place: it isn't unfortunately. It's setting them up to fail in my opinion.

@Familiaritybreedscontemptso thank you so much for your detailed answer, your school sounds amazing!
You're right I suppose that I don't like the idea of it taking a really long time to embed because I think we're all struggling to live with the current situation. Still it is good to see what the result will be if we get on board.
Thanks 😊

Thanks for your reply @PrimaryTeacher123 it's interesting to read different ideas. Our school has always been more towards the nurture/meeting SEND needs side of the discipline scale rather than as strict as yours but I do understand your argument and in the past we've had a few children that we managed to nurture through primary but then they were rapidly in trouble at secondary level.
What's interesting is that you both have different ideas but both sound really proud of what you're achieving. I guess there's more than one way to do this but somehow we all need to get on board with the same thing.

@PrimaryTeacher123 I disagree that children aren’t strong and robust for being supported in developing intrinsic motivation to behave rather than behaving because otherwise they’ll get told off. Their actions absolutely do have consequences, just not arbitrary ones.

We have high levels of send and children from very challenging backgrounds - if we took a no tolerance approach some of them would end up excluded really early on in their school careers. I can’t in all conscience do that to a 5, 6, 7 year old - where do they go then?

I think the challenge is - a bit like ‘gentle’ parenting - a lot of people say they’re using restorative practice or a nurturing approach but don’t do all of it / miss out the consequence part / think it just means letting the children do whatever they want. And of course that won’t work.

So for example, a child takes a football off another, refuses to give it back and swears at the child asking for it. When an adult gets involved they throw the ball somewhere it can't be reached and run off.

How would you respond to that @Familiaritybreedscontemptso ?

We've been told to have a restorative conversation with him and get him to apologise but he simply refuses...leaving the other child (and parents) upset that nothing is being done.

@Familiaritybreedscontemptso I also work in a school situated in a very challenging area and teach children with difficult lives. Some of our children live in chaos at home. They love the calm, structured environment at school, where they feel safe and calm. They know bad behaviour just will not be tolerated. It's quiet and peaceful, where great learning takes place. How many disaffected young people join the Army and say it's saved them because they love the discipline and order?

Intrinsic motivation to behave only works in an environment where that motivation is provided and encouraged, unless I am interpreting that wrongly. What happens when they go to secondary school and they are expected to "just behave"? What happens when they go to work as adults and their boss just tells them to get on with it and earn their money or they're fired? Do they stay motivated then? This is the real world in most cases.

We "support" children too with their emotions and mental health. But we don't support bad behaviour - tough love you might call it, but it's still love. We make sure they understand that yes they have rights, but they have the responsibility to make the choice to behave, be respecful and follow the rules, just like life in the real world. We don't have nurture afternoons, nurture units or fidget toys. They are in school to learn and other children have a right to learn too. Later on in secondary school or later in life, they get arrested if they hurt others, not nurture. They need to be prepared for their lives ahead in my opinion.

As you put it "a lot of people say they’re using restorative practice or a nurturing approach but don’t do all of it / miss out the consequence part / think it just means letting the children do whatever they want. And of course that won’t work" I agree with this but I would argue it's because parents get mixed up with the message. A simple approach of praise the good, consequences for the bad has been lost. I would also say that the consequence part has to be a consequence (something they don't like). In my school, for the vast majority, they don't like being told off, losing a week's worth of break and lunch and so on, it stops them doing it again.

I have been in schools where they take full on nurture approach. I just see children being poorly behaved, other children copy it, and children learn that a bad action results and an easy response. Life isn't easy, it's hard and the children need to learn that. Your school maybe different and would be fascinated to see it, if you're saying it's orderly and calm with that approach, but I'm very cynical, sorry.

But we can disagree on approaches, ofcourse we can. But my school produces outstanding results, you can hear a pin drop in lessons and assemblies and that's because they are expected and must behave. It's very absolute and clear.

Did the ball belong to the other child & now is lost?

Yes have the restorative conversation and within that I would hope the child would come to the solution that an apology is a good idea. Also that they need to retrieve or replace the lost ball. However the apology doesn’t really solve the issue anyway - it might make people feel a tiny bit better but you also risk children learning that all they have to do is say sorry and a problem goes away. Which is not real life.

Mainly it’s about problem solving. Yes how can we resolve this situation and make everyone know it’s being addressed, but also what led up to it? What were the triggers? What was the child getting from those choices? And how can we meet those needs in a more positive & productive way? Eg maybe that child can’t play out on the playground with everyone just now, what they need is a more structured play intervention. I guess the core principle is that behaviour is communication. Do we listen to it or do we squash it?

So it can look like - hang on, that child was mean and now they’re getting loads of time with Mr B and I’d like that too. That’s not fair! Therefore the conversations with the injured party are super important too - and through the whole school community. Our 6 year olds can articulate equity vs equality. That doesn’t mean we’re teaching them to be pushovers. Just to understand different people are coming from different places.

And yes, in the real adult world we have punitive justice systems. But look at reoffending rates. They don’t work. And look at secondary schools with their zero tolerance approaches - all that happens is the children around the edges get lost.

I’ll stop now cos as you can tell I could go on about this for a long time 😂 fwiw (Not a lot!) ofsted think our behaviour & personal development are outstanding. It works but it is not easy, quick or neat. Good luck on your journey; I hope you can see a way forward for your school soon. Change is so hard. It’s a shame your head made the changes so quickly without giving proper time to look at what was working well before - that’s probably the route I’d take with her btw (assuming you’re slt) - can we look at what was working before and mesh the 2 together.

@PrimaryTeacher123 you are confusing intrinsic & extrinsic motivation. Intrinsic = I’m doing it because I want to, because I recognise it makes me feel good, because I understand why it’s important to me and the people around me. Therefore it is more likely to hold in different situations, because it comes from within.

Extrinsic = I’m doing it because otherwise I’ll miss my playtime. Doesn’t stick when there isn’t playtime to miss.

Of course it’s not as simple as that because real life is complicated! I’m really glad the approach you use works in your school. Ours does too and yes, it’s very ordered and calm. Children absolutely know their actions have consequences. Assembly isn’t silent though because we have children with Tourette’s. But there’s more than one way to arrive at the same destination, cos we get the results and ofsted approved behaviour too :)

Btw my dh teaches secondary and is 100% on board with the draconian uniform policies and zero tolerance. It’s a regular debate in our house! There’s more than one way to achieve an outcome and of course we’re all passionate about what we do cos we know our children only get one chance!

Well the behaviour in my school, as a whole, is pretty awful. I have few issues because I have good relationships with the children and if I say something I mean it. I am honest and direct and always have restorative conversations with the children when needed.

However, our behaviour policy is weak and, frankly, pathetic. It's woolly, air fairy nonsense which means the kids haven't really got a clue what's going on because it's not displayed anywhere, so they just push the boundaries with some staff, to see if they can get away with it.

If a child is issued a lunchtime detention they get to go for lunch early then sit in a nice warm room while everyone else is outside freezing their arse off. Sanctions are inconsistent and sometimes ridiculous IMO.

I feel sorry for the kids sometimes, they don't know whether they're coming or going because our SLT are distant and, again, weak.

I recommend the DfE Behaviour Hubs programme, it may focus the mind of your Head. It doesn’t have to be completely Dix based versus Michaela Academy style, there is a middle ground.

We have consistent and firm boundaries and expectations, build a culture of behaviour that you expect and drill it into the kids. Reward good behaviour. Get parents involved quickly and remind them of their home school agreement. We literally phone them there and then. You should hopefully then be able to identify a smaller cohort of children that need more support, restorative practice and in house alternative provison 🙏

I think we (as in the world / society) have complicated everything far too much. Many of our schools are in chaos, the streets aren't safe and so on.

Bring it back to human nature. If all we got was a chat, every time we did something wrong, if it was as easy as that, how many people would break the rules? If I knew I could steal a new car from the millionaire owned garage, a few miles from me, and just receive a "chat" well it would be very tempting, put it that way. I think I'd rather have the car and put up with the chat. Maybe us "moral" caring few wouldn't ever contemplate such a thing, but many, many would!

So why don't they, because in the real world there is a punishment and for the vast majority it puts them off. It's a simple as that.

You say the HT is out of her depth? How so?

Consistency and consequences which match the misdemeanor.

I once worked at a school where the behaviour was dire, despite it being a leafy suburb. Pupils had zero respect for staff or each other and I definitely put it down to the behaviour system. The school was operating two systems which seemed at odds with each other. On one hand each class had a yellow/red card system, but yellow cards were handed out like sweets by lunchtime supervisors. Kids really weren't bothered by them, there was no real consequence for getting one other than an accumulation of 3 or more in a week meaning missing golden time (back in the day when this was a thing). Most kids played the game well to reign it in after two yellows. Red cards were a trip to SLT's office and missing golden time. They were usually given for violence or swearing. Again though, kids really didn't seem to fear these as the school also ran a Restorative Justice approach. Basically, the perpetrator and the victim were sat down together with a member of staff (often not the member of SLT they'd been sent too, as they usually just told them don't do it again and farmed them off to the class teacher or TA to finish dealing with them). They had a chat about how the perpetrator was feeling when they acted, how their actions made the victim feel and what they could have done differently. After a (often prompted) sorry, that was generally the end of it. Parents would be informed of the red card but most kids weren't bothered by this. It was a very 'I've got your back kid' type of area anyway, parents seemed to have little respect for staff so no wonder this rubbed off on the kids. I HATED that place largely due to their complete over-reaction to minor misdemeanors (the ample yellow cards) and the airy fairy approach to completely unacceptable behaviours. No wonder the kids ruled the roost, there was no consistency.

My current school is in a very deprived area, high EAL etc but my goodness the difference in terms of respect. Parents generally support the school as they want a better life for their kids, this respect rubs off on the kids who seem to care so much more about getting into trouble (in general, obviously there are always exceptions).

I really put it down to the difference in behaviour management though. We do 1, 2, 3 Magic and it generally means the minor misdemeanors are let go and we quickly move on. No consequence for 1 or 2, it's just a warning and as long as the behaviour stops it isn't spoken of again. Much more effective than jumping straight in with yellow cards for silly little things (with no real consequences anyway). If a pupil gets to 3 for repeated undesirable behaviour or they use violence or swear it's straight to SLT and missing break times. As opposed to the airy fairy don't do that again they are spoken to very sternly (not shouting but they certainly come away knowing staff are very displeased and disappointed with their behaviour). Most come away quite sheepish and seem to learn from the experience. That's the big difference for me, creating an atmosphere where pupils genuinely want to please staff and definitely don't want to be sent to the office for bad reasons. When there's no consequences, there's no respect. When there's no respect, you've lost them.

You have my sympathies OP as it can be totally miserable working in a place where others aren't consistent with behaviour. I don't agree with shouting at kids but they should certainly fear getting into trouble (from a disappointing people they respect point of view, rather than through genuine fear. Obviously I don't want pupils to be scared of teachers!)

I teach in secondary school, our behaviour is on the whole "good" in that there are minimal serious incidents, and low level disruption is largely manageable. We do have issues with apathy, poor attendance etc though.

I do think that one of the keys is having a head who will actually exclude, even if it's just for really serious incidents. If students and parents know that line is there (and we live in a community where word gets around) it means that conversations with the school etc get taken more seriously.

I don't think restorative conversations work without some level of student buy in. If you don't have that, then as a system it does all fall apart. We do discuss behaviour with students, but ultimately there are hard sanctions at the end of it, and they understand that if they don't engage with an initially "softer" approach then there will be consequences at the end of it.

Students are given chances to improve, but ultimately, if they don't, things repeatedly escalate, potentially quite quickly.

I would say that compared to some secondary schools, we don't make a huge fuss about things like uniform, going to the toilet etc (although our site helps with this). We do care about things like equipment, punctuality, attendance, which clearly link to learning!

I have generally good behaviour, and would say:

-routines (silent start to every lesson)

• High standards (as they come into my classroom, I am saying good morning Hassan, shirt in George, quietlyAyaan, as quick as you can Jacob, coat off Zeph, this is a classroom….
• be strict and clear: when I am talking you are not, Mike, that is a final warning, Hamza, be more organised next time please, you must bring your calculator to maths, Toby, that is a conduct point for not doing your homework, Harrison, you may go to the toilet, but you will have to sit in my classroom for five minutes during lunch….
• be warm (after the telling off create an opportunity for praise) “impressive thinking on your feet, Mohammed” or quietly to one student “I can see you really focussed Callum, well done”.
• contact parents regularly “I am so pleased that Henry is working hard on his algebra: please encourage him at home: it isn’t true he can’t do maths…” “Yusuf is normally a real star. I was disapppointed that he was disruptive today. Remind him of the high standards we expect of him. I hope he is back to his normal excellent self on Monday”, “I have put Tim in detention because he pushed another boy in the lunch queue. I was very pleased he came to find me to apologise”.
• stick to the school behaviour policy which should be clear. SLT should be present, supportive.
• always remember that Ibrahim (names obviously changed) that quiet kid from the poor background who has a difficult home life, who has been bullied, whose parents speak little English. He is desperate to learn. My maths classroom may be one of the few safe spaces in his life. I owe it to him for my classroom to be calm, for him to be able to hear me, ask me questions, for me to be able to assess his knowledge, for me to tell him he should aim for the top grade, for me to know that he is pupil premium and what he is entitled to, for him to be on a pathway to do Alevel maths, to push him to Oxbridge, to change his life. If my classroom is noisy and if behaviour is poor, we are not respecting Ibrahim. Isn’t he entitled to respect? Shouldn’t I try and get him the best exam results, give him cultural capital?

I think it's quite interesting how frequently this thread refers to SLT. In small primaries, you often are the most senior teacher! Very small primaries don't even have a deputy head and the head teacher might be shared between several schools and so often off-site. There just isn't always someone to refer up the ladder to immediately (which is what small children need). Even if you're lucky enough to have a deputy, she/he will almost certainly be teaching their own class. It means you need to be able to deal with behaviour yourself within your classroom; escalation to SLT is not always a very helpful policy.

Some interesting points raised, thanks very much for taking the time to reply. I don't really want to get too specific about the head or the school for fear of being outed.

I actually have high hopes for the future but need to feel like I'm on the right track in the shorter term as many staff are getting stressed and demoralised now.

It is interesting that restorative practice is really polarising for many teachers.

@PrimaryTeacher123
I agree with everything you said. Unfortunately, I don’t see that in my school. Restorative approaches is interpreted as you can do whatever you want, the worst that can happen is that you’ll have a chat. Behaviour is horrific as a result. We all need unpleasant consequences as a deterrent. For example, I don’t speed because I know that if I get caught by a speed camera then I know that there’s a chance I’ll end up with points on my licence which will cost me money. Even if I get away with a speed awareness course it will still cost me money. If I thought I’d just have a chat about it and no consequences then I’m pretty sure I’d be tempted to speed. Conforming to rules is an important life lesson that needs to start in childhood. The deterioration in behaviour during my long teaching career is very obvious and definitely the reason so many are leaving the profession. Some local schools are so bad that staff have resorted to striking due to unacceptable behaviour. Something really needs to change before the recruitment crisis has a serious effect on education.