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Whether you're a permanent teacher, supply teacher or student teacher, you'll find others in the same situation on our Staffroom forum.

What kind of pgce?

17 replies

Jackydaytona · 19/08/2023 19:11

Hi 👋

My eldest is set on a pgce (will be starting their 3rd year at university in October...) and wants to teach history (their passion)

However, I'm wondering if a school based pgce would be better?

Current university does do pgce and obviously they'd like their tuition fee! :)

They could get a bursary for geography (which they did at gcse and a level...) but they aren't keen and worry they wouldn't be able to teach history afterwards (I think they could)

Any advice? Tips?

They have volunteered in schools and done LSA work, too, so do have some experience in classrooms

I'm a bit worn out with being their sounding board tbh and not sure I'm giving good or relevant advice

Thanks

OP posts:
WedRine · 20/08/2023 09:02

There isn't really a right or wrong way to go about this. A school's based is good in that they often start in school from September, whereas the university-based students will start around October, but ultimately they both leave with the same qualification and the work they put into the qualification will result in how employable they are, because I'll be looking at their interview lesson and references rather than where they did their PGCE.

She'll need to do her research and decide which route is best for her. The most common school-based route is unsaleried, and there will still be some affiliation with a FE institution, for which she'll have to complete assignments. We take school-direct trainees from 3 different providers and each provider has their own rules, for example one provider wants them in from September 4th and should be on 60% timetable by Christmas and 80% by March. They have uni every Friday until April time at which point uni becomes more ad-hoc. Another one of our providers has them in from September 4th but until October half term they are doing pupil observations, teacher observations and they have a portfolio they have to complete before they can teach their first lesson, and they only ever get to 70% of a timetable. Provider 3 basically never has them in uni (like 3 times per term) and they basically have 2 weeks of observations and then are teaching. But obviously they can only do placements at schools which sign up to these providers/alliances which in more rural areas can mean a big commute. We certainly have trainees with us till January and then are at a school 35 miles away and public transport isn't great around here.

Saleried-route obviously gets paid but there's more competition for those and harder to come by.

She absolutely could do geography and then move to history but it would depend on what recruitment is like for history in your area. She would have also been trained up on the geog spec and mark scheme and would have a skeleton of geog lessons, to go into her ECT and be doing everything from scratch would be hard and she might find it hard to secure a job teaching history with no previous history experience. In some schools history and geography are just within the humanities department and it'll be easier to switch so wouldn't be an issue.

yorkypuds · 20/08/2023 09:23

When I did mine, I asked advice from my children's headteacher. He said he viewed the local university pgce higher than the school direct ones. He said there was more opportunity to look at different ways of doing things rather than being moulded into one school's ethos and way which might be totally different to his. This was primary though!

Toddler101 · 20/08/2023 10:11

My university-led PGCE meant 2 weeks of solid uni, then school placements started: 4 days a week in a school setting, 1 day a week at university. Then at the end of the course 3/4 weeks fully school based, then final week at uni for assessment meetings.

Felt very supported by school and uni and the 1day a week at uni was a good sounding board with PGCE peers.

Toddler101 · 20/08/2023 10:14

Saleried-route obviously gets paid but there's more competition for those and harder to come by.*

Don't know if it's changed but the salaried route was for career changers when I did my training, so you had to have 3 years of working to be considered.

EnidSpyton · 20/08/2023 11:26

I would strongly advise against doing a PGCE straight out of university.

I would encourage your child to go and get a different job for at least a couple of years first. Teaching is so all consuming for the first few years - they would have very little social life while training, and going from education straight back into education is very limiting on their range of life experience.

I knew I wanted to be a teacher while at university, but I waited 5 years before training. In those 5 years I became a senior manager in a different career, worked abroad for a year, and had loads of fun living it up in London with my friends. By the time I trained at 26 (still incredibly young in retrospect!), I had some life experience under my belt, had seen the world, and had plenty of professional competencies. I had also matured, and put distance between myself and my own school days, so that I could come back into a school environment with fresh eyes. I was also no longer practically a contemporary of the oldest children I would need to teach.

I've been teaching for well over a decade now, and the teachers who come straight into the classroom from the classroom are always the ones who struggle the most, in my experience. They're too young and not mature enough to cope with the emotional as well as the professional side of the job. Too many 22 year old teachers try to manage classrooms by becoming mates with the kids, and it always ends in tears.

To actually answer the question, both university and school-based PGCEs have their positives and minuses and it's really up to what kind of person you are and how you prefer to learn. I did a school-based PGCE and I loved it because I was teaching from day one, which was what I wanted. I also really valued being a member of staff in the school and feeling part of things for the whole year (and I ended up staying for another two) rather than being just a student teacher. Others prefer the gentler introduction of the university-based PGCE. I also got paid a salary to train, which was a big motivation for me to do the schools-based programme, but if I'd been able to get a bigger bursary on the university course, I might have chosen that instead.

There are not enough Geography teachers and too many History teachers, so if your daughter wants to teach Geography, a Geography PGCE isn't a bad idea in terms of future employability. In many schools, History teachers have to teach Geography and vice versa anyway, so she'll probably be teaching both throughout her career. The PGCE is more general skills than subject based - it doesn't teach you how to teach your subject specifically - it's your time in school that gives you that knowledge. So on her placements she could make it known that she has a History degree and ask for opportunities to teach both so that she ends up with equal confidence in both subjects.

Good luck to her!

Sinead4ever · 20/08/2023 13:32

The other option might be teach first? Quite full on I believe -
I would advise doing some time in schools observing- and talking to the teachers and especially any trainees or early career teachers about what they think of the training in different places - universities in particular differ quite a lot

calorcalorcalor · 20/08/2023 14:58

I completely agree with the above post - can she look to work as a TA for a year? This will give her amazing classroom experience and will definitely help her during her training year, whichever route she takes.

At my school, the university led PGCE and the school direct route have exactly the same placement dates, assignments, deadlines etc - they only differ in that one you apply for at the uni and one you apply for at the school.

Salaried school direct placements are almost impossible to get round here and would only be given to someone who had significant in-school experience.

Jackydaytona · 20/08/2023 15:19

EnidSpyton · 20/08/2023 11:26

I would strongly advise against doing a PGCE straight out of university.

I would encourage your child to go and get a different job for at least a couple of years first. Teaching is so all consuming for the first few years - they would have very little social life while training, and going from education straight back into education is very limiting on their range of life experience.

I knew I wanted to be a teacher while at university, but I waited 5 years before training. In those 5 years I became a senior manager in a different career, worked abroad for a year, and had loads of fun living it up in London with my friends. By the time I trained at 26 (still incredibly young in retrospect!), I had some life experience under my belt, had seen the world, and had plenty of professional competencies. I had also matured, and put distance between myself and my own school days, so that I could come back into a school environment with fresh eyes. I was also no longer practically a contemporary of the oldest children I would need to teach.

I've been teaching for well over a decade now, and the teachers who come straight into the classroom from the classroom are always the ones who struggle the most, in my experience. They're too young and not mature enough to cope with the emotional as well as the professional side of the job. Too many 22 year old teachers try to manage classrooms by becoming mates with the kids, and it always ends in tears.

To actually answer the question, both university and school-based PGCEs have their positives and minuses and it's really up to what kind of person you are and how you prefer to learn. I did a school-based PGCE and I loved it because I was teaching from day one, which was what I wanted. I also really valued being a member of staff in the school and feeling part of things for the whole year (and I ended up staying for another two) rather than being just a student teacher. Others prefer the gentler introduction of the university-based PGCE. I also got paid a salary to train, which was a big motivation for me to do the schools-based programme, but if I'd been able to get a bigger bursary on the university course, I might have chosen that instead.

There are not enough Geography teachers and too many History teachers, so if your daughter wants to teach Geography, a Geography PGCE isn't a bad idea in terms of future employability. In many schools, History teachers have to teach Geography and vice versa anyway, so she'll probably be teaching both throughout her career. The PGCE is more general skills than subject based - it doesn't teach you how to teach your subject specifically - it's your time in school that gives you that knowledge. So on her placements she could make it known that she has a History degree and ask for opportunities to teach both so that she ends up with equal confidence in both subjects.

Good luck to her!

Ah, you see, this is my view!

They'd be a great teacher but...they'll only just be 22 if they go straight into teaching

Then they had the bright idea of doing a masters 🙄 sigh

I'm currently trying to make them see that a pgce IS a post grad qualification 🙄

I think the working in a school for a year or travelling is a good idea

Thank you all for the advice x

OP posts:
ThanksItHasPockets · 20/08/2023 18:33

What is their degree?

Jackydaytona · 20/08/2023 18:46

History and politics

OP posts:
Brushesarescary · 20/08/2023 19:01

I’m a qualified History teacher currently leading (and teaching) RS and it’s fairly common for history teachers to teach other subjects. If it’s history that’s her passion I’d recommend she qualifies in that as it’s not as easy to swap to purely history (though there is often many opportunities to teach a mix of humanities and other subjects).

I’d agree with the advice to work in schools as a TA or travelling, I’d also suggest she looks at the beginning teaching section of the HA (historical association) on Twitter.

WayDownInTheHole · 20/08/2023 19:38

EnidSpyton · 20/08/2023 11:26

I would strongly advise against doing a PGCE straight out of university.

I would encourage your child to go and get a different job for at least a couple of years first. Teaching is so all consuming for the first few years - they would have very little social life while training, and going from education straight back into education is very limiting on their range of life experience.

I knew I wanted to be a teacher while at university, but I waited 5 years before training. In those 5 years I became a senior manager in a different career, worked abroad for a year, and had loads of fun living it up in London with my friends. By the time I trained at 26 (still incredibly young in retrospect!), I had some life experience under my belt, had seen the world, and had plenty of professional competencies. I had also matured, and put distance between myself and my own school days, so that I could come back into a school environment with fresh eyes. I was also no longer practically a contemporary of the oldest children I would need to teach.

I've been teaching for well over a decade now, and the teachers who come straight into the classroom from the classroom are always the ones who struggle the most, in my experience. They're too young and not mature enough to cope with the emotional as well as the professional side of the job. Too many 22 year old teachers try to manage classrooms by becoming mates with the kids, and it always ends in tears.

To actually answer the question, both university and school-based PGCEs have their positives and minuses and it's really up to what kind of person you are and how you prefer to learn. I did a school-based PGCE and I loved it because I was teaching from day one, which was what I wanted. I also really valued being a member of staff in the school and feeling part of things for the whole year (and I ended up staying for another two) rather than being just a student teacher. Others prefer the gentler introduction of the university-based PGCE. I also got paid a salary to train, which was a big motivation for me to do the schools-based programme, but if I'd been able to get a bigger bursary on the university course, I might have chosen that instead.

There are not enough Geography teachers and too many History teachers, so if your daughter wants to teach Geography, a Geography PGCE isn't a bad idea in terms of future employability. In many schools, History teachers have to teach Geography and vice versa anyway, so she'll probably be teaching both throughout her career. The PGCE is more general skills than subject based - it doesn't teach you how to teach your subject specifically - it's your time in school that gives you that knowledge. So on her placements she could make it known that she has a History degree and ask for opportunities to teach both so that she ends up with equal confidence in both subjects.

Good luck to her!

Definitely agree with this. I started training at 26, and can't imagine having done it sooner.

And if the passion is History, I would encourage them teaching History (and Politics if the opportunity arises). It's a hard enough year without already being on the backfoot of not teaching something you have a degree in and are passionate about.

Jackydaytona · 20/08/2023 20:59

Thank you 😊

OP posts:
Fotophrame · 21/08/2023 13:41

I really wouldn't apply study the 'wrong' subject to get the bursary.

Often you'd need the degree in the right subject anyway to be accepted, and even if knowing it to A level is deemed enough, subject knowledge is possibly going to be an hassle you don't need.

After qualifying, it would be a case of convincing employers to choose you over someone who trained in and has experiencing of teaching the right subject.

Humanities departments might ask or allow teachers to teach across the subjects, however if geography is the one with the bursary, it's probably also the one that's understaffed and being added to the timetables of those predominantly teaching history. You could end up in a 'Humanities' job teaching mainly geography, a bit of RE, an hour of sociology and no history at all.

Jackydaytona · 21/08/2023 14:34

Thank you all so much for the replies...

We've had a good chat and I think they feel happier 😊

OP posts:
fussychica · 21/08/2023 14:41

DC went for a university based PGCE straight from a different university but had done a year abroad and an additional Erasmus placement so was pretty independent by then and a year older than your DD. They chose the university based route as it allowed them to experience several different schools before qualifying. They found the first year of teaching more demanding than the PGCE year.
They are a HOD in a large secondary school and still love teaching after eight years.
I hope your DD finds the right route for her.

Jackydaytona · 21/08/2023 17:35

I think working as an Lsa is something they would do (and have done)

They are also interested in heritage work

OP posts:
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