No school will employ me

[Thegreatbigbarrieroflondon]

I will keep this short and sweet but my god, why is it so bloody hard to get a job in a school? I have a first class degree in a relevant subject and previous school experience but yet I cannot get through all the onboarding tick boxes.

Ive been offered two jobs post interview but yet they’ve had to pull the plus because:

I have had had 4 jobs in the past 3 years (times were a little crazy due to covid and I had various reasons for having so many).

*The first job was in a college and they were able to provide a basic reference as my line manager left education (schools said a basic reference was not enough)

• Second job was for a charity that was commissioned for 12 months but has since dissolved and no longer runs the project so my manager has jumped ship to another charity (and school won’t accept a reference from HR).

• third job was as a support worker and my manager has also moved and the schools won’t accept a basic reference from HR

and on and on it goes. I even suggested getting an academic reference from my tutor as I’ve just finished my degree but again not good enough and no character references etc etc.

Honestly I’ve just given up now, I’ve found new employment in the housing sector whereby I didn’t have to go through so much nonsence. I have a clear DBS too. I know recruitment needs to be water tight but when schools can’t recruit, they’re literally making things even harder for themselves. I’m not the only person to have this problem either.

anyone else share my frustration here? My housing role pays a lot more but I did enjoy working in secondary schools.

That should have said

pull the plug.

To be fair the schools did share my frustration as they wanted me on board but I guess they have their policies to follow. Sorry for all the typos I am typing quickly it’s just people move on quick these days and can’t always provide lengthy references.

Whereabouts in the country are you?Agency roles can be a way in if you can afford to work that way

@Treebo

I am in the midlands. I’m signed up to an agency and regularly do TA work currently and that’s how I got in to my current school for an interview but I still had to complete the schools onboarding process. I had worked there for a term via the agency and they really wanted to keep me on but to no avail. This area is CRYING out for staff and I have a friend who is experiencing something similar with a school right now after interview. Apparently her school will not accept the reference as it’s only a dated, basic one (but her employer only does basic ones as that’s their policy). It’s very frustrating. I’ve given up now and landed myself another role but ideally it’s not the one I actually wanted (despite it paying more).

I know if you spend a long time as agency potentially the school can vouch on your behalf to put you onto the books.Sorry to hear of your experience, sounds like a loss to the school.

The main barriers seem to be:

• schools not accepting basic references from employers (when often this is the policy of the employer).

• schools not accepting references from places that aren’t education based.

• schools not accepting references from a centralised HR department (when said manager has moved on so you actually can’t go to anyone else other than HR).

• schools wanting references from all employers over a 3 year period (often TAs have had quite a few employers within that timeframe). If one reference isn’t forthcoming you can’t explain the gap, you then have a problem so to speak.

Just a few of the problems I have encountered despite having a clear DBS and working at the school via an agency, so clearly demonstrating competency.

It is absolute madness in the current climate. TAs have very different work backgrounds to teachers and it’s just not accommodated at all. It’s like education is in its own bubble. I understand we need safe recruitment but when I have a clear DBS, a successful term of working at the school, a relevant degree AND work experience you know there is some sort of problem. To be fair to the two schools they have felt just as frustrated but cannot get past the multi academy recruitment tick boxes.

It is definitely adding to the TA recruitment crisis in my opinion.

@Treebo

Yes the business manager told me that they could risk assess after a longer time period but that one term wouldn’t suffice. They were very frustrated but I just think this needs highlighting to the powers that be that it is most certainly adding to the lack of support staff in schools. I don’t even think the NHS is this bad (and that’s always been notoriously beaurocratic).

I was able to get my new job relatively fuss free due to them accepting my references (and I am being paid more for it) so it is what it is now. Just wondered if anyone else has experienced something similar? Seems crazy in the current climate.

I applied for a leadership job once and so they were interested in my management experience before teaching. I explained the reference would be a basic one and they acted like I was lying! Said they had never heard of such a thing. I said it was incredibly common in the private sector...

That sounds really frustrating. Unfortunately safer recruitment policies are absolutely iron-clad when it comes to gaps in employment, but there is no reason why schools shouldn't be able to accept basic factual references which confirm your dates of employment or accept references from outside the education sector. Are these local authority or MAT policies?

@ThanksItHasPockets

MAT policies. The large majority of primary and secondary schools in my locality are part of academies. I have no gaps either. I’ve given up now but I was just curious to find out if others had experienced anything similar. Like I said, the business manager herself was also very apologetic as I had interviewed well and accepted the role.

They need to get the references so they have it on record - OFSTED do have the tendency to ask for employee references too - wouldn’t be great if they didn’t have one. Surely there’s got to be someone out there that can give you one? I’ve given many out over the years - even in one case where the teacher had left 10 years previous.

@good96

I think you’ve misunderstood. I can get references, they’re just not suitable for the many reasons I stated in my original post. Also a reference from 10 years ago they absolutely wouldn’t accept, it has to be within 3 years. I also offered them a reference via my Uni tutor and they also refused that one.

The issue is that basic references are often given when people leave employment in difficult circumstances- sometimes it's an agreement to leave with a basic reference, rather than be dismissed or face disciplinary action. Once on its own isn't a red flag, but three times in three years, and there's no-one willing to give you a reference (so you haven't kept in touch with any of these managers/colleagues either)- I can see why that would be a red flag, unfortunately.

If you can get a long term supply role through your agency, they may be able to act as a reference.

WRT to the college, is there no-one else there who remembers you and could give more than a basic reference e.g. a member of SLT?

I disagree that this is the case in the private sector, but schools don't seem geared up to look beyond their own practices.

I’m told by friends in other sectors that basic factual references are increasingly the norm in many industries as subjective references are so open to dispute.

@Postapocalypticcowgirl

The supply agency did give me a reference too but were only available to provide a basic one. No SLT in that school, they all left the building quite swiftly when the school was taken into special measures. It is obviously a red flag in education then (basic ones) but it’s really quite normal practice outside of Education. My ex service manager for example at the charity is literally unable to give me one as it breaches the charities policy whereby only HR gives out references. (A lot of places want to protect themselves against any liability for references now).

And I know i keep repeating myself but I CAN get references, but only basic ones. I HAVE kept in contact with ex managers but they do not provide full references as it goes against their own policies.

Anyway, like I said, I have secured a job now outside of education (but still in the capacity of working with vulnerable people) and the process was a lot smoother. Just thought I would start the discussion due to the current recruitment crisis. Personally I think it is the schools loss (and to be fair their business manager agreed, but hey ho). Obviously it goes without saying I have a clear DBS too.

@ThanksItHasPockets

You are correct. They are open to dispute due to their subjective nature so many organisations in the private/voluntary sector have simply stopped giving out full references to protect themselves against any liability.

They simply just do basic ones and no one is allowed to give them out other than the centralised HR department. I worked for a mental health charity (think a large, national one) whereby i was able to gain skills in creating courses and then delivering them. It was a temporary contract due to funding (and they didn’t win that contract again hence me looking elsewhere for suitable employment).

I suspect the key thing is that the references that you are able to secure don’t line up with paragraph 223 of Keeping Children Safe in Education. You need a reference from your current (or most recent) employer from someone appropriately senior, and if it’s from a school then it must be verified by the Headteacher. If you’ve ever worked with children in the past then one reference should be from the most recent employer who employed you to work with children (of your most recent employment did not involve working with children). References can be basic to a degree but do need to confirm that you are suitable to work with children and there are not any substantiated safeguarding concerns or allegations that meet the harm threshold.

These rules came in because two girls were murdered when their school employed someone that they didn’t realise had a long history of allegations of sexual offences.

As a DSL, I would not be willing to support the appointment of a candidate that didn’t have references from their most recent employer and the last employer to employ them working with children that, as a minimum, gave the dates of employment and confirmed that they were suitable to work with children. There may be a recruitment crisis and we are desperate for staff, but not so desperate that I’d consider someone without confirmation from their most recent employers that they don’t deem them to be a risk to children.

@Takoneko

My most recent employer was my agency (I have been on their books for over a year working in various different schools). They were able to provide a basic reference as I’ve been doing short contracts, day to day assignments etc. They would have confirmed no safeguarding concerns? I presume so anyway as there has not been any concerns and I always had good feedback and no gaps in employment with them since I’ve been registered.

My previous employers before the agency were a mental health charity and before that a private organisation where I worked as a support worker. Prior to the 3 year period I had worked in a secondary school but that reference would have been too out of date.

I am pleased we are not in the Ian Huntley era, I have children myself in schools and want people to be appropriately vetted, but it’s worth noting that a severe shortage of staff in schools also leads to poorer outcomes in terms of safeguarding.

Also there were huge failings with Huntleys CRB check. Lack of comms, and not even checking previous surnames etc. I would like to think that the current DBS system is a lot more efficient. I know that the enhanced check is very thorough linking up to local police forces etc. He also had large, unexplained gaps in his work history etc and of course tightening these regulations up was the right thing to do.

However, when you have worked in the school already for a term (albeit via an agency) it does seem a little crazy. If I am not deemed safe enough to get a permanent contract I shouldn’t have even been allowed to step through the door 🤷‍♀️. Just my musings.

If you’ve worked in a school for a term then your reference should be from the Headteacher of that school, not your agency. That is likely to be exactly what is causing the issue.

If you’re considering looking to work in schools again in future it’s probably worth having a read of paragraph 223 of KCSIE to get an idea of what the guidelines on references are.

I know you have another job outside of education lined up now, but what was needed was a reference from the Headteacher where you were employed for a term. It’a highly irregular for someone who has been at a school for a term not to have a reference from the HT of that school and instead have a “basic” reference from their agency. The HT would give a reference as laid out in paragraph 224 of KCSIE.

Oh wait, I’ve just realised it’s the same school. That’s slightly different.

The issue there is likely to be about the difference between schools needing to be satisfied that agencies have made appropriate checks (which the agency will have declared that they have) and a permanent role where the school have to do their own checks.

We’ve had a situation recently where we had an issue with an agency not declaring a safeguarding issue with an agency worker until after they’d spent 2 days at our school. We will now never use that agency again and obviously did not have that member of staff back, but to an extent you have to trust that agencies have followed the procedures that they tell you they have.

I did go through the compliance/onboarding process with the agency but from what I can remember there seemed to be less red tape. Anyway it is probably that, like you said.

Not sure how I would get back into education now as my new role is in adult housing services. I guess the universe had other plans for me.
When one door opens, another one shuts. Maybe it will open again one day, who knows.

I've had the opposite issue in the past, I have not moved around enough - how are you supposed to provide recent references from two separate educational establishments when you have been in the same school for more than 10 years?